Feedback on NatFly

[Guernsey]

An airshow where the public are invited could attract a very expensive insurance cover. Alan.

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

Nah, I know the guys who run the Parafield airshow and I know what work they put in. And that's why you have ten thousand members of the public each paying $25 to get in. And the exhibitors and food and drink vendors paying to be there... So you can pay key people for their time doing the negotiating and paperwork.

 

Airshows are a profitable business, or there wouldn't be so many every year!

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

I find it utterly incredible that the aerobatic display was allowed to proceed. Aside from the liability, approvals and any insurance implications, this is so far outside the realm of recreational aviation as to be laughable. The organisation of the event just seems to have lost touch with what the members are interested in. Keep it simple, so that an airshow need only be displays of STOL aircraft and rag-and-tube that people have asked for. I doubt that such extensive planning would be required for that, but it would have just as much interest, if not more, from the crowd. The event needs a good dose of rationality and common sense in what activities would be feasible and practical, which I would bring if involved in the planning. I can only surmise that the organisers got carried away with one person's idea (but I hope not).

 

 

[Guest basscheffers]

I find it utterly incredible that the aerobatic display was allowed to proceed. Aside from the liability, approvals and any insurance implications, this is so far outside the realm of recreational aviation as to be laughable.

I have to strongly disagree with that view. Why would I be only interested in recreational aircraft because that is what I fly? Why would I not like to have an airshow roaring overhead while catching up with my friends and talking airplane talk? Why would I not want to have an airshow to draw in a crowd of earthlings who can then discover at all the exhibitors and workshops that they too can achieve and afford flight?

With respect to the organisers and pilots involved, the progression of a bunch of aircraft flying straight and level was boring as hell.

 

We have it in our charter to promote aviation. So far we've only ever really preached to the choir and finding a way to draw crowds to NATFLY would be a great way to change that.

 

 

[facthunter]

Having an aerobatic display at the big meeting of Ultralights that are not permitted to do any aerobatics seems a bit incongruous to me. I would put relating to member's choosing, building , servicing their aircraft and flying them as being a priority. Have an event that most can participate in perhaps with the aircraft (spot landing perhaps?)...but with people coming and going most of the time makes it harder. What about a swap and sell? Better food that won't give you a heart attack. The Instructors seminars at Narromine were enough to get me there a few years ago. Engine servicing tips. How to do a fabric covering job, do good flush rivetting, fibreglass repair techniques. Carving or repairing your own propeller How to select a propeller for your aircraft. Care of airframes and engines in a salt (marine) environment perhaps set up an instructor to do BFR's for those in remote areas or anybody who wishes.. Meeting other people HAS to be the main reason you get together. Common interest and exchanging ideas. Nev

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

any flying display at a public gathering requires approval regardless of aerobatic content or not...I have personally organised quite a few displays now and it is reasonably straight forward to accomplish. Insurance is not the bogey that you might think it is and again straight forward to obtain. The hardest part of all of this is to raise the funding ie sponsorships etc. An event such as NATFLY, I would think should be more than an opportunity for not only the converted to attend workshops and seminars etc, but also the perfect opportunity to showcase a fabulous activity such as rec flying to those who have a fledging interest hence importingly an air display of different types (weightshift, gyros, homebuilts, factory etc). This would encourage organisations such as SAAA and HGFA etc to also support the event. Although RAA certified pilots can't aerobat, there is a pathway (GFPT + ) for those who want to go further and adds just a bit more to the spectacle.

 

 

[Guest burbles1]

Nev,

 

I have to agree with most of your views. There are enough "spectacular extravaganza" airshows if that's what people really want. The RAAF shows (Amberley, Pearce etc.), Avalon, certain fly-ins. Those shows are centrally located near cities so that the public can attend. RA-Aus has NatFly, located away from the madding crowd, for recreational pilots. We all go "ooh-ahh" even when a Savvy takes off. Boring as hell? Hell no! I would get off watching practical demos of amphibious aircraft, getting a running commentary about manoeuvres, learning practical tips that would inspire pilots to buy from the exhibitors. Get back to more "grass roots", LP machines because that is what we fly, and that is what we know. You want the Roulettes? Go to Avalon. You want to learn to be a better pilot? (You know what's coming....). What I saw over two days was an ad hoc jumble of exhibitors, speakers, a few demos, a meaningless aerobatic display - nothing was tied in to anything else.

 

We need a steady hand on the tiller (I hope I can use that Nev). Sorry, but we are losing our way if NatFly is a reflection of the current state of rec flying - Narromine was so good a few years ago. More commonsense planning is the best way forward.

 

 

[Captain]

And remember it is still a "Flyin" and not an airshow although this year with the thanks of Lee Ungermann (ex RAAus CEO) and his associates that we had some elements of an airshow.

As entertainment and something to look at each day, I thought that the aerial displays were a vast improvement over past years, and much better than the previous amateurish illegal ones. Congratulations to those involved in organising what occured.

 

On another issue, did anyone attend Rod Stiff's presentation, what was said and did he give any material out that you can copy here?

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[HEON]

I have been reading the numerous posts about getting back to the rag and tube and have to say WHY!

 

People are NOT buying them in any number.

 

People ARE buying "plastic fantastics"

 

The rag and tube are not comming to Natfly. Some say distance...or are more R A Aus aircraft now NOT rag and tube?

 

Who makes rag and tube aircraft now? And in what volume? I have sold more Super Petrel's into a small amphibian market in the last year than Drifters manufactured.

 

I own a new 24 rego Fisher Drifter. I said to Wayne he could have it to display at Natfly. He did not take up the offer. He will sell some but the aircraft that are sold now are NOT rag and tube...GET OVER IT...TIMES CHANGE

 

 

[Bubbleboy]

Heon...come look in my garage. There is a beautiful wood and rag plane taking shape and when its flying you shall see it at Natfly. I will much rather have my finished $25000 rag and wood to fly and I bet will get more people pouring over it than your plastic flying boat. Times do change but not always for the better mate! This IS Rec flying if you havent forgotten.

 

Scotty

 

 

[Captain]

Heon...come look in my garage. There is a beautiful wood and rag plane taking shape and when its flying you shall see it at Natfly. I will much rather have my finished $25000 rag and wood to fly and I bet will get more people pouring over it than your plastic flying boat. Times do change but not always for the better mate! This IS Rec flying if you havent forgotten.Scotty

One of the beauties of RA Aus is that there is room for everyone, it is not a competition, and in my experience almost everyone respects what almost everyone else flies.

 

Let's drop any hint of a blue about rag Vs plastic & old Vs new ..................................and if needed just let's all gang up on the recycled beer cans.

 

 

[HEON]

BlackRod I OWN and FLY both thus think I have a balanced view and thought it should be said. I personally love my Drifter but if limited to one aircraft it would NOT be a Drifter.

 

Personally would love a trim body, hair on the head, and be able to look at the young ladies without saying "my daughters older!" BUT TIMES CHANGE

 

Not VC stuff, however I but can think of them famous words that started..."We will fight them on the beaches, we will fight them on the landing grounds....we will never surrender!" reading your comment:big_grin:

 

 

[Ultralights]

yes, times are changing, as they always do, but have you ever considered that the rag and tube grassroots flying of the past, hasnt actually shrunk, its just the membership has expanded rapidly in the near past, and these new members simply dont have a memory of these rag and tube days?

 

my early days of aviation in the late 80's was GA, i had no idea rag and tube aircraft existed. it wasnt until the Jabiru arrived on the scene that i discovered RAAus, or the AUF as it was then and how cost effective it made flying..

 

 

[HEON]

Yes Bubbleboy people will look at your Pietenpol air camper when it is finished, just as I slobbered over the CFI's of Edra's one complete with Model A Ford engine in Brazil when I was there (Edra make them plastic flying boats by the way).

 

Bet more 19 rego Jabaru's are currently under construction however. Thats my point...more R A Aus people are buying and flying plastic fantastics!

 

Have some lovely photos of this air camper if you are interested (send email)

 

 

[winsor68]

To me cost effective is the whole point... I can't say "If I wanted to spend $100k on an aeroplane I would etc etc" because I would love to spend $100k on an aeroplane... but it is just not practical. So give me Rag and Tube any day... and that is what I want to see more of at Temora. Keep in mind as has been said by others the membership is ageing... the plastic fantastics may be popular now but if the cheaper aircraft is allowed to go the way of the Dodo it will be the end of Recreational Flying when all the baby boomers move on and with them their $100k aeroplanes.

 

 

[Bubbleboy]

Heon...your missing the point. The average person in their 30's and 40's doesnt have $70000 plus to spend on a plane. What they can manage is $300 here and there to buy some plans and some wood maybe, and start building. While doing this they will likely attend Natfly and look over all the other planes on display and buy an instrument from one of the vendors. Their kids will annoy the hell out of them and want to help sand that bit of spruce and help mix the glue to make a rib. Burbs mentioned there is a lack of initiative in the RAA to get the younger generation involved which is so true. As much as I admired the Petrel flying at Natfly, at this point in time its way out of my generations budget. It can still be a form of Rec flying but if we want this Rec flying thing to grow, affordability is an important issue. My 0.02 worth.

 

Scotty

 

 

[sfGnome]

I find it utterly incredible that the aerobatic display was allowed to proceed.

Well, I loved it. I'm never going to fly that way, but it was great to watch. I didn't notice too many other people with their eyes at ground level either. It would have been fantastic to see some of the museum aircraft flying as well, regardless of the fact that we can't fly 'em.

p.s. It would have been good to see more rag and tube there too, but out of all the planes that flew in, there weren't many of that type. Is that indicative of a general cross section of users, or is it just that it's too hard to fly that far in the simpler a/c?

 

 

[pudestcon]

I have been reading the numerous posts about getting back to the rag and tube and have to say WHY!People are NOT buying them in any number.

People ARE buying "plastic fantastics"

 

The rag and tube are not comming to Natfly. Some say distance...or are more R A Aus aircraft now NOT rag and tube?

 

Who makes rag and tube aircraft now? And in what volume? I have sold more Super Petrel's into a small amphibian market in the last year than Drifters manufactured.

 

I own a new 24 rego Fisher Drifter. I said to Wayne he could have it to display at Natfly. He did not take up the offer. He will sell some but the aircraft that are sold now are NOT rag and tube...GET OVER IT...TIMES CHANGE

Well this one dragged me out of my hole in the ground HEON,

 

And I really shouldn't be posting on a thread about feedback on Natfly, seeing as how I wasn't at this one and not likely to be at the next one either!

 

However, I do agree with your post in as much as people are preferring the fantastic plastics over rag and tube - why else would manufacturers of fantastic plastics be 'everywhere', and 'rag and tube' manufacturers are so scarce? Just take a look at the ads in our magazine for the trends. If there was a market for rag and tube then there would be manufacturers - pure and simple I would have thought, supply and demand always rules in a commercial world.

 

In my view, people are suggesting rag and tube - read 'grassroots', be at Natfly because they are a rarity!!! these days - the novelty factor, no less.

 

My passion is for rag and tube tail draggers so I vote we see more of them at Natfly - but I'm not holding my breath.

 

I'll crawl back in my hole now and go back to sleep.

 

Cheers,

 

Pud

 

 

[ahlocks]

....... let's all gang up on the recycled beer cans.

Fair dinkum Rat, where you're heading will make NatSpat look like a fairy's dust up....

 

 

[ahlocks]

...Plastic fantastics are not as much 'fun' as rag and tube.

DBI, I do believe you are right. One of the more inspiring things I have witnessed recently was someone just tooling along overhead in a trike. They appeared to be just loping along on fast idle and sucking in the scenery. With the go fasts, it seems more like a game of three dimensional chess at times. Was I envious? My bloody oath.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I agree, it's just an exercise in pointlessness.

 

The comments which intrigued me were the ones which wrote off the Carbon Cub on the grounds of its price. Why? Are we so bigoted that we don't want people who have the money to be able to buy a high power to weight ratio aircraft for their recreation?

 

Equally, if someone wants to build a basic aircraft just suitable for flying around his property why should he be singled out?

 

With the ever increasing cost of flying, there certainly is a niche for a very basic aircraft for those who don't need to fly cross-country, but just want to enjoy flying.

 

 

[vk3awa]

Q to anyone that was there - I had to leave half way through: The 'usual' oil is Shell Huile Aviation 20w-50w. Did Keith mention an alternative?

Shell 100W+

 

 

[turboplanner]

Re the several comments on cost, I would be interested to see the number for plastic fantastics sitting in hangars and sheds gathering dust because costs have got out of reach

 

 

[HEON]

Thought I would get some comments!

 

David, my comment regarding number of Drifters manifactured I thought implied in the same time frame...last year. Must remember to cross the "i's" and dot the "t's" better.

 

 

[winsor68]

Isn't the market for aircraft amazing at the moment!!! The number of fantastic aircraft available in OZ for around $100k or less mark is amazing. I still find it a shame that there isn't a $30k factory built rag and tube though...