Paying passengers???

[Microlight Magic]

G'day All,

 

I was wondering if i might be able to seek some wisdom from those who are in the know in regard to paying passengers?

 

More precisely, taking passengers on selected 'scenic flight' routes and charging a fee to do so. Now, I'm pretty sure that I am going to get a few comments here along the lines of, "it's not legal for RA aircraft to do so", which I could understand, except...so many seem to be doing it. However, (at the risk of answering my own question), is this just done by a somewhat cheeky means..ie, taking passengers up technically for a TIF, which just so happens to be a chosen 'scenic' route?

 

Both trikes and 3 axis services in this area appear readily available. Does using an LSA aircraft make this an easier prospect?

 

Finally, what pilot qualifications would be needed to take passengers on these 'scenic' trips, and what insurance coverage is required (pax signed disclaimer?)?

 

My appreciation in advance for all comments. Very interested in this area (something i would love to do in the future!)

 

 

[ahlocks]

....taking passengers up technically for a TIF, which just so happens to be a chosen 'scenic' route?

If you were a properly approved flight training facility you might get away with it for a little while. Pretty sure RAA and CASA would eventually become interested in the TIF to continued training ratio though.

 

 

[facthunter]

To do a TIF for someone, you must be an instructor attached to a FTF. (Training organisation). Otherwise you can cost share.. ( just been extensively discussed on another thread).. Nev

 

 

[sseeker]

Now, I'm pretty sure that I am going to get a few comments here along the lines of, "it's not legal for RA aircraft to do so", which I could understand, except...so many seem to be doing it. However, (at the risk of answering my own question), is this just done by a somewhat cheeky means..ie, taking passengers up technically for a TIF

So you think because others do it, it's ok for you to break the law?

 

As said above, you need to be an instructor and belong to a FTF. You CAN take passengers on scenic flights and have them pay 50% of the cost, you can't advertise this though. I.e putting posters up at your local aerodrome/newspaper saying you're doing scenic flights for say $40.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[Microlight Magic]

Thanks guys, all interesting stuff, and clarifying this grey area.

 

Andrew, don't be concerned mate, I have no interest in breaking the law, I am just trying to find out how the whole system works and it does seem that people do advertise scenic flights for a cost. Let me just add here, that I have no professional knowledge of how various operators carry out their business, and if i was to ever do something in the future, i would most certainly want to do it correctly and abide by all rules and regulations. I appreciate your concern though, and for keeping information regarding our great sport on the straight!

 

So lets see if i have this right - basically, for someone to take TIF's you must be affiliated with a FTF and be an instructor (what level?). Alternatively is also possible to take pax on scenic flights and ask them to contribute/share the costs involved for the flight. I'm assuming that the operator can determine this cost?

 

Nev, do you have a link to that previous thread?

 

Thanks

 

 

[sseeker]

Fair enough, just making sure. RA-Aus FTFs have an exemption which exempts them from various CARs in regards to advertising flight training and conducting flight training. It is illegal to advertise your flight if you're not exempt from those particular orders. Being a basic instructor is fine for TIFs.

 

It's good you ask these questions, a lot of people would just assume and go ahead with their plan and often end up in a lot of trouble. CASA certainly doesn't take lightly to people making money where there's some to be made for themselves.

 

FYI, I started one topic on advertising your flight (I was pretty confused with this as well) here: http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/advertising-your-flight.16771/ - this thread contains a mixed amount of info on Advertising and Charging your PAX.

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/charging-your-pax.26858/#post-153886 - This one was created more recently and contains solely information on charging your passenger (cost sharing)

 

I'm not Nev, but I hope I answered your question.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[ahlocks]

...CASA certainly doesn't take lightly to people making money where there's some to be made for themselves....

CASA's brief, believe it or not, is not to stop people making money. It is to ensure that the average joe citizen can sit at home watching telly and not get clouted by a wayward aeroplane and if average joe citizen wants to make use of civil aviation, he/she can have an expectation that the aircraft is built and maintained to a prescribed standard and that the pilot(s) are appropriately trained for the task.

 

Exploiting a loose interpretation of cost sharing to run psuedo commercial ops using a private license or recreational cert is going to end in tears eventually.

 

 

[sseeker]

I hardly see how obtaining an AOC to conduct scenic flights has anything to do with aviation safety. I can take myself on a scenic flight and not be bothered by CASA... I can take a passenger on a scenic flight and still not be bothered by CASA however as soon as I start advertising my flights or wanting more than a 50% share CASA will get me. Now tell me what that has to do with aviation safety. I can appreciate having a CPL as a minimum for this, as it's an operation that would require a professional pilot, but AOC, that's asking a bit to much.

 

I praise CASA for what they're doing in the way of aviation safety, but c'mon in this particular situation what I said was relevant.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[poteroo]

AOC, FTF, whatever - it's just the way that our government/s maintain/s some control over what could easily degenerate into an absolute cowboy situation.

 

In the USA, the FAA approves the instructor, rather than the 'establishment' of a GA flying school AOC as in Aus. RAAus follow CASA's rules for GA - via FTF's.

 

It probably has a lot to do with the 'Anglo' pre-occupation with creating a bureaucracy to complicate a simple educational process.

 

Unfortunately, the process has become more important than the skill.

 

happy days,

 

 

[ahlocks]

I hardly see how obtaining an AOC to conduct scenic flights has anything to do with aviation safety.

Have a read up of the Civil Aviation Act 1988 where it spells out the requirements of an AOC. Pay particular attention to subdivision D Sect 28 where it spells out all the safety requirements for issue of an AOC.

 

..as soon as I start advertising my flights or wanting more than a 50% share CASA will get me.

Regulation 210 states that you can't advertise unless you have an AOC. Ooops, there's those pesky safety system and training obligations again... Regulation 2, 7A (d&e) describes cost sharing quite clearly in order to prevent the clever dicks from doing creative math with the 'share' split.

 

Now tell me what that has to do with aviation safety.

Contrary to all the bitching and moaning you will hear or read about the subject, it is to protect joe public from operators that do not have the appropriate training and safety systems offering commercial aviation services.

 

 

[sseeker]

Ahlocks, you quoted what I said and proved exactly what I was saying lol. I was saying that cost sharing of above 50% is illegal AND so is advertising. Can you tell me why RA-Aus FTFs are exempt from some of the regulations in CAA 1988? CASA must have thought that they were so safe they didn't need an AOC

 

Just so we're clear, I'm not trying to be extremely negative towards CASA and I'm 100% for aviation safety, I just think the whole process (as poteroo has said) is a bit over controlled. But I guess it's better to over control than under control. :thumb_up:

 

-Andrew

 

 

[ahlocks]

Ahlocks, you quoted what I said and proved exactly what I was saying lol. I was saying that cost sharing of above 50% is illegal AND so is advertising.

Ahhhh, I see said the blind man. Thought you were debating the affirmative to paid scenics on an RAA ticket..

 

Can you tell me why RA-Aus FTFs are exempt from the regulations in CAA 1988? CASA must have thoughtthat they were so safe they didn't need an AOC

CAO95.55 is the example I'll use. As you know, it lists the parts of the act and regulation we have been permitted an exemption for.

Sec 3.1(f) Gives an exemption to CAR 1998 reg 210 to advertise as far as; "flying training to qualify for a pilot standard specified in the RAA Operations Manual is concerned;" I'm not certain if, or how they would be getting around doing TIFs as joy flights or for the requirement to hold an AOC to do so.

 

Just so we're clear, I'm not trying to be extremely negative towards CASA

CASA, like any government department, is chockablock full of bureaucrats and toss pots and real easy to get negative toward.

 

The problem is that there's just as many punters on our side of the fence trying to circumvent the limitations imposed on our recreational cert. or of a PPL for that matter.

 

I'll keep digging to try find a better answer, but don't hold your breath waiting for it.....

 

 

[sseeker]

Thanks David, turned 16 on good Friday, time to get my Ls! I'm pretty serious about flying and I wanna learn as much as possible for my career as a commercial pilot.

 

-Andrew