VMC into IMC and "proud of it"

[Ben Longden]

I was taught that a VMC trained pilot flying a VMC equipped aircraft should never fly IMC.

 

heres one local guy who brags about doing just that.

 

I make no other comment, other than adding the CASA taught lesson of 178 Seconds...

 

Link removed - Mod

 

Link already removed by the authour of the vid prior to this thread being moderated. - Ben

 

 

[turboplanner]

Deserves to be nominated for a Darwin award. Must be getting a lot of negative comments because he's deleting them.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Well, he hasn't exactly covered his tracks. Wouldn't take even CASA more than a couple of minutes to figure who he is. Scary stuff to think someone could take a risk like that and in a Trike!

BlackRod,

 

I happen to fly both a trike and a J160 and to be quite frank, if i ever got myself into a position where i had to decsend into cloud with no other option i would rather do it in a trike than a basic instrumented 3 axis aircraft as they are far far more forgiving.

 

I was sort of taken back at the "and in a Trike" comment you made, as it come across as "one of those not real aircraft" statements.

 

Cheers

 

Alf

 

 

[alf jessup]

Alf, I feared I might get this reaction. I was going to go on to explain that a plenty of 3 axis these days have glass panels and some have autopilots that would allow you some chance of staying straight and level in IMC whereas Trikes usually don't.I didn't include that because I didn't want to imply that an untrained (for IMC) pilot could fly IFR because he had some instruments or an autopilot.

 

The bloke was an irresponsible idiot quite independent of whatever he was flying.

I'm Cool with that Don,

 

Yes a lot of our now 3 axis ultralights are better fitted out than the earlier GA.

 

I was basically meaning a basic 3 axis compared to a trike, i would rather be in a trike.

 

Well I guess we have all done something at sometime in our flying that we are not proud of and was maybe a bit irresponsible and survivede it, hopefully we learnt from it (I know I did).

 

I hope the guy has learnt something from this and become a bit wiser (meaning flying into to marginal conditions) and I guess you could say learn not to display it to the world to scrutinize.

 

Cheers

 

Alf

 

 

[Ben Longden]

I could not agree more to what both of you have said.

 

 

[winsor68]

And who is flying that blue Trike to breakfast at Tooradin? lol

 

 

[eightyknots]

That is not nice: 42 minutes stuck above cloud before finding a hole to descend through: this could have been so avoidable. Thanks for the link.

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Agreed. Early in the film it was obvious of the cloud layer ahead.... so the big question is WHY didnt he decend to avoid an IMC conflict?

 

It certainly was an educational vid... how NOT to do it... and then brag about it to the entire world.

 

 

[facthunter]

I didn't manage to get the Vid to run. People who post have a bit of a duty of care insomuch as they shouldn't advocate dangerous behaviour as it would arguably encourage others to outdo them. Lots of people who fly simulators are likely to totally underestimate the difference between making the numbers line up in a sim that is not moving, to what really happens when all you can see is something like you would experience if you were in a milk bottle, with the "seat of the pants" feeding inputs that thoroughly disorientate you.

 

Those of us who have survived and done lots of IF and tell others that, going into cloud will probably KILL you in less than 178 seconds, if you are not in a properly equipped plane, trained and current and not tired, hung-over etc, are often disbelieved. Hard to know what to do about this. Ben is correct to bring it to our attention. I guess some will listen. Maybe... Nev

 

 

[alf jessup]

And who is flying that blue Trike to breakfast at Tooradin? lol

Windsor 68,

 

You saying that is my blue trike are you lol.

 

Well you would be quite correct in that, Yes I know the induvidual who posted the youtube vid and have flown a couple of times with him.

 

I also have spoken to him about the video.

 

I also advised him to remove it as what might look good to him and others is not necessarily the smartest thing to do if it is not legal. (or looks illegal)

 

I spoke to him at lenght and there is a lot more to the video than what he actually edited.

 

The induvidual is actually quite a safe and safety concious pilot and like I said in an earlier post. sometimes we all have done something not all that smart when we flew, and as long as we survived it and "Learnt" from it we all become better for it.

 

Alf

 

 

[turboplanner]

It's good that you spoke to him Alf.

 

Unfortunately, in the good old days of the Air Safety Digest where part of the investigation always included an analysis of the pilot's social background, all too many of the accidents reported someone who claimed to be safety conscious, but usually also claimed to be able to handle the conditions which took him out, especially the people who had flown in marginal conditions several times.

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Glad you spoke to him, Alf.

 

Now can you ask him about the abusive phone call I got late last night?

 

With the vid, the story line was a concious decision to fly VMC into IMC, and then dramatise the issue, and breathe a sigh of relief when he was able to escape the situation. This was further reinforced with the scrolling script at the end.

 

IF he had shot and cut the vid about avoiding an IMC conflict, he would be beseiged with congratulations, instead of the current situation he has himself in.

 

IF he had flown over the top of the cloud layer, and then turned 180 and decided to go UNDER the cloud to continue the trip, we would all hail it as an example of good airmanship. As it was presented it was an example of bad airmanship, captured on film.

 

As Turbo said, the accident investigation delves deeply into the psyche of the pilot, and inevitably finds the guy is a nice guy, but a deliberate and excessive risk taker. In other words, the psyche of an "accident waiting to happen".

 

 

[winsor68]

Thanks Alf... I thought the video's I watched (didn't see the one being questioned here) were bloody good... and showed aviators having a great time enjoying recreational flying as it was intended.

 

 

[alf jessup]

Glad you spoke to him, Alf.Now can you ask him about the abusive phone call I got late last night?

With the vid, the story line was a concious decision to fly VMC into IMC, and then dramatise the issue, and breathe a sigh of relief when he was able to escape the situation. This was further reinforced with the scrolling script at the end.

 

IF he had shot and cut the vid about avoiding an IMC conflict, he would be beseiged with congratulations, instead of the current situation he has himself in.

 

IF he had flown over the top of the cloud layer, and then turned 180 and decided to go UNDER the cloud to continue the trip, we would all hail it as an example of good airmanship. As it was presented it was an example of bad airmanship, captured on film.

 

As Turbo said, the accident investigation delves deeply into the psyche of the pilot, and inevitably finds the guy is a nice guy, but a deliberate and excessive risk taker. In other words, the psyche of an "accident waiting to happen".

Ben,

 

I have spoken to the induvidual and he assures me he has never called you or spoke to you at all lastnight.

 

For what it is worth i trust him in what he is saying and hasn't got a clue where you live in any case.

 

I think someone else may have called you who knows of you or where you live to richen the mixture so to speak. (Stir the pot)

 

Like i said earlier the video in it's editing is not what actually what was, and yes the over dramatization on his part in the editing wasn't the smartest thing to do as I have already spoken to him about.

 

Cheers

 

Alf

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Some posts and the link to the captured video have had to be removed. - Moderator.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Like i said earlier the video in it's editing is not what actually what was, and yes the over dramatization on his part in the editing wasn't the smartest thing to do as I have already spoken to him about.

If he thinks he can walk away from it with the editing excuse, then based on what we clearly saw in the video, you should ask him these questions:

 

What is the minimum distance from cloud a Pilot in Command has an obligation to maintain?

 

What was the radius of the hole he dropped through?

 

Hint: It's spelled out in CASA's Visual Flight Rules Guide: http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_90008

 

 

[turboplanner]

It's a good thought Ignition, and of course didn't apply to this situation, but when you get in the milk bottle as Facthunter describes it, and something this pilot could have faced when he did the 180 if some weather had come in unnoticed behind him, it's usually pilot inducement that upsets the aircraft, and often starts when you begin a turn, and the g force tends to tell you you're sitting upright, but plenty has been written on this, including the thread "VMC" here.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Reason being, Trikes have a little more self stability for straight and level flight, if it is calm air, you should be able to let go of the control bar and the trike will stabilise itself due to gravity and the weight hanging underneath the wing.

Trikes only have positive stability in pitch - they exhibit neutral stability in roll/yaw so any divergence (& it tends to be more bumpy inside clouds) will remain rather than self-correct. I haven't seen the clip in question but I would also MUCH prefer to be in a trike if I had been foolish enough to lose VMC.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Hi John,

 

Trikes do have positive Yaw Stability, as do 3-axis aircraft, but for different reasons. So if one finds oneself flying blind in a trike, I'd suggest that's it's Roll Control and LSALT you need to keep in check. In a trike, pitch takes care of itself unless the pilot inputs make it wrong and there's no real Yaw Control.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Hi John,Trikes do have positive Yaw Stability, as do 3-axis aircraft, but for different reasons. So if one finds oneself flying blind in a trike, I'd suggest that's it's Roll Control and LSALT you need to keep in check. In a trike, pitch takes care of itself unless the pilot inputs make it wrong and there's no real Yaw Control.

You are right of course but divergence in roll will lead to yaw - I was trying to keep it simple for our friends who are unfamiliar with trikes :big_grin:

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[facthunter]

The biggest problem is that a turn will occur and you get used to it fairly quickly so that coming out of it (wings level) feels like you are entering a turn the other way. You do need a gyro instrument to make it easier. ( AH or turn GYRO giving rate of turn). Training was done on "limited" panel ( No gyro's) even to the extent of recovering from unusual attitudes "under the hood".. but it's much harder to do, particularly in rough air. Nev

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...Trikes have a little more self stability for straight and level flight, if it is calm air, you should be able to let go of the control bar and the trike will stabilise itself due to gravity and the weight hanging underneath the wing. (Others certainly could explain it a little better than I could, after all, I have never flown a trike although I wouldnt mind getting the chance.)

I'd just like to expand on what others have said, as this same misunderstanding is shared by the numerous folks who have written apps for SmartPhones to provide some aviation instrumentation including AH (Artificial Horizon), based on the "G" sensor in the phone. They have made the mistake of thinking that gravity acts in isolation and can thus be used as a reference to aircraft attitude in roll. Unfortunately, any aircraft in a balanced turn will have what appears to be gravitational force, acting at 90 degrees to a line along the centre of lift of the wings and intersecting the CG. Thus in a 60 degree balanced bank, "down" based on what might appear to be gravitational force" is actually 60 degrees from vertical. The app will still think you are flying straight and level.

 

My experience of steep turns in a trike is that while shallow turns will remain stable with hands off, a steep turn will tend to become steeper (level flight or ascending turn). Just think about it. The lower wing is traveling slower through the air because it is describing a circle that is a lesser diameter than the higher wing. Thus the higher wing has more lift. This is a very simplistic explanation, but should serve to make the point. For a more comprehensive treatment see JB's Tutorial titled "Don't Stall and Spin in from a Turn". For a coordinated turn, the same applies to trikes.

 

The additional caveat here is don't use a SmartPhone app in place of proper instruments or think that it may offer an alternative.

 

P.S. I don't take my hands off the bar in a steep turn:no way:, but can judge by the force needed to hold-off or hold-on the turn. Also, don't construe my post as advocating flying by instruments in any manner whatsoever.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Just reading the above posts is beginning to make the hairs stand up on the back of my neck. Some of you guys need to read up on this subject, view the "178 seconds" video etc.

 

I'll see if I can get a transcript of a case for you.

 

Most of the fatalities are guys who thought they would be able to control it, but believe me, even under a hood with mild turbulence, and full vacuum instruments you are working that rectangle of instruments and trying to disregard your arse.

 

*it starts with a

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

E

 

Just reading the above posts is beginning to make the hairs stand up on the back of my neck. Some of you guys need to read up on this subject, view the "178 seconds" video etc.I'll see if I can get a transcript of a case for you.

Most of the fatalities are guys who thought they would be able to control it, but believe me, even under a hood with mild turbulence, and full vacuum instruments you are working that rectangle of instruments and trying to disregard your ****.

 

*it starts with a

Easy there TP - granted the thread has drifted off topic somewhat in correcting a common misunderstanding about trikes but none of the posts is advocating flying outside VMC

 

John

 

 

[turboplanner]

It wasn't that. but the thought that somehow the aircraft stability would save them if they did inadvertently get in. I'm looking through the digests now