VMC into IMC and "proud of it"

[Guest davidh10]

It wasn't that. but the thought that somehow the aircraft stability would save them if they did inadvertently get in. I'm looking through the digests now

I think you will find that was not actually what was said. Meanwhile Crezzi beat me to it, as I too felt branded as irresponsible, albeit that wasn't your intention, for daring to discuss VMC flight characteristics of a trike, because the thread was titled about an excursion into IMC.

None of the posters in this thread have even suggested that anyone, not properly qualified, licensed, instrumented and current, attempt to fly in IMC under any circumstances.

 

P.S. I own my own copy of "178 Seconds". Now that really does make the hairs on the back of your neck bristle. I've also done quite a bit of reading on the subject including the inner ear anatomy and characteristics that give rise to "the leans" and listened to an ATC recording of an untrained 3-axis pilot who flew into IMC and who also encountered icing (absolutely uncontrolled sheer panic). He did survive, but more by good luck than good management. ATC was amazing at trying to talk the pilot through it. A very unpleasant and deeply disturbing recording to listen to.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Thanks David, it wasn't my intention to brand anyone irresponsible, and I'm sorry that came across.

 

Since I last posted I've managed to find a stack of accident reports, which I'll post on the "VMC" thread, hopefully in a few hours after I've scanned them.

 

These are for the less experienced guys who may not be aware of the key issues.

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Ditto what John and David said in #27 & #29. My #22 does not suggest that wings could be kept level (roll axis) without the correct training, instruments and currency in IFR. I still live by my rule that I don't fly through any cloud I can't see through.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

I was out at Longreach (early 1990's) when a non IFR commercial pilot was taking pilots up to "show them how to fly IFR", but did it in clear skies. He also talked some of our students into not continuing to PPL as he could teach them everything they needed to know. One of his IFR "students" ended up crashing into a house in Toowoomba, narrowly missing a restaurant. He had landed at Roma where they tried to talk him out of it, but, confident of his "training" decided to push on to Archerfield. He didn't know where he was, assumed he was over Goodna, descended for a look-see, and the ground came up to meet him. Sad story. You can read about him in the annuls of the ATSB. The occupants of the house got out OK. It was only luck that he didn't have passengers. There's more to it than staying level. The "teacher" was never bought to account for his deeds, but did tone down his activities. CASA finally prosecuted him after he took his charter aircraft to a number of outback mechanics for written quotes to work on the engine. They got copies of the written quotes, statements that various mechanics had inspected the plane at various airfields and compared that to the Maintenance Release, which held no record of the hours flown, or work done, and built a comprehensive case against him. This was just the tip of the iceberg and he had a bad influence on a number of low hour pilots, some who ended up injuring themselves & their planes doing what he advocated was "a piece of p". I am happy to see these cowboys weeded out. Had it happened sooner Longreach may not have lost their pilot, Publican and good bloke.

 

Sue

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

I've managed to get a lot of stories extracted from the Aviation Safety Digests, but just having trouble getting the memory down (even for one) to a level that will post.

 

You're right FV, even with IFR Rating, if the planning isn't right the hills are waiting.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Don't confuse IFR with IMC.

 

Many commercial flights are conducted under IFR in VMC. It is the opposite that doesn't work... VFR, by definition cannot be used in IMC. In IMC you can only fly by instruments.

 

For a better understanding of Instrument Rating and IFR, look at the CASA web site at the syllabus for:

 

• Command Instrument Rating - Single Engine Aeroplane
   
   
  
• Private Instrument Flight Rules
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

[Bluey]

Can someone please email me the link to the video as I can't seem to be able to find it.

 

post to [email protected]

 

Thanks, Bluey

 

 

[turboplanner]

Flying into cloud

 

Sorry guys, I'm trying to post multiple page attachments, but the system seems to only like single page uploads

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

An ATSB report (from RAA web site) I've been reading over the weekend is very interesting..

 

General aviation pilot behaviours in the face of adverse weather

 

 

[dazza 38]

I remember a story from the mid to late nineties, I was told this by a RAAF friend of mine.(they where all in the RAAFand they are all friends of mine) He was in a 182 with two other friends of mine. Friend A had/has a PPL.Friend B was a F111 pilot now a F18 Rhino Pilot.Friend C who told me this story isnt a pilot but a Avionic Systems tech, which means hes knows what the instrument do and what they are for.

 

Anyway they where out at Cunnamulla Pig shooting, they on there way back to Archerfield when this happened.

 

Friend A was flying, Friend C was in the RH seat. Friend B was in the back seat. The weather started to turn bad. Classic storm build up in the early afternoon, in sunny QLD.The clouds were closing in and the back door was closing.

 

Friend B, could see this happening, said to Friend A, I think you should be looking for your alternate, Yes great Idea.By this stage friend A, had his head down, they entered cloud, he didnt know at the time because he head in the cockpit, working out the heading and drawing it on his map.He entered the classic spiral turn, although it was gentle at this time. Friend B as cool as a cucumber, said to friend A."YOU HAVE LOST IT". "WINGS LEVEL,THEN climb to "STRAIGHT AND LEVEL".

 

Remember Friend B, was in the back seat. Somehow he swapped seats with Freind C. Friend B Took over and flew IFR in IMC from the RH seat for a little while towards there alternate.

 

They would have died if Friend B, wasnt there to pick up the pieces also I cant work out with all this happening, how in the hell do they swap seats, I remember that bit well because that bit was brought up, at least they are both skinny.

 

It all happened in a few seconds.I dont think it was a beat up, because friend C was pretty shook up when he told me.The others didnt mention it.

 

Names not mentioned to protect the innocent.

 

 

[turboplanner]

The bigger question was how did friend B get enough angle to see the instruments, an instructor asked me to land a 172 from the RH seat a few months back and I gave up looking and landed by the seat of my pants. Great save though.

 

 

[dazza 38]

The bigger question was how did friend B get enough angle to see the instruments, an instructor asked me to land a 172 from the RH seat a few months back and I gave up looking and landed by the seat of my pants. Great save though.

Dont know mate, but when Friend C told me about it, I was thinking.WOW.This story is how I heard it and how remember and but it was a long time ago.But I have a Good memory.It was scary listening too it back then, thinking of the other possible outcome .

 

 

[Ben Longden]

At the risk of having another post modded....(Ok ...removed at the request of the maker of the video - Mod)

 

At the CASA seminar at Shepparton, the speaker wrote on the board the following formula.

 

VFR/IMC= CD (Spoken as VFR Into IMC equals CD)

 

Where

 

VFR is visual flight rule pilot

 

IMC is Instrument Meteorological Conditions

 

CD is Certain Death.

 

He then played 178 seconds to live.

 

My instructor said the vision was too accurate, and he felt sick knowing there was no instruments to look at.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

CFI, and you managed to keep yours??...interesting....

 

 

[Guest airsick]

An old military saying:

 

In peace time there is never a reason to fly into a thunderstorm.

 

Not even to teach a student a lesson.

 

 

[sfGnome]

An ATSB report (from RAA web site) I've been reading over the weekend is very interesting.. General aviation pilot behaviours in the face of adverse weather

Thanks David. Two quotes from that paper that I found memorable:

 

Perhaps this mindset can be characterised as: “Should I continue the flight as planned or not?” In contrast, the VFR into IMC group apparently did not focus on weather

conditions until relatively later in the flight. The focus of this group can perhaps be

 

characterised as: “Can I reach my destination or not?”

and

 

The flight is only ever as safe as the pilot’s last decision.

[Guest davidh10]

Thanks David. Two quotes from that paper that I found memorable...

Thanks. Yes, I agree.

I found it interesting that the paper was analysing the pilot psychology that characterises the three behaviours, rather than the outcomes, which have been done to death (no pun intended).

 

The uncertainty in judgement is that "safe to continue" is much like security. A continuum rather than being a distinct yes / no answer. At some point the answer, while perhaps still "Yes" in the mind, starts to be overshadowed by doubt or uncertainty. It then becomes like "The Little Red Engine that Could" (I think I can... I think I can... I think I can...). Looks like the proactive VFR pilot diverts or returns at that point instead of pressing on to the point that it becomes "Oh #!%*."

 

Of course the weather may then clear so that the flight would have been possible in hind sight. That has happened to me on one occasion, but I had to make the return to base decision on the prevailing conditions and trend, not on the uncertain possibilities. Although in hind sight, I could have completed the flight safely, I did hear later about a CFI at a different aerodrome, under the same cloud bank, who had got stuck between the descending cloud and terrain. He alledgedly climbed through IMC to VMC on top of the cloud layer, from where he then diverted. According to the story, he was gravely shaken by the experience.

 

For me, my experience, and the story about the encounter with IMC only reinforces the findings in the paper.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Dangerous flyers should not be promoted as "heroes", including self-promotion.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Dangerous flyers should not be promoted as "heroes", including self-promotion.

I think everyone agrees with you Eightyknots. Have you misread someone's post?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yes your correct, but some would say that you have duty of care aswell, flying into a TS??..your student deserves better than that..

 

 

[Guest airsick]

to learn, we need to make mistakes, be shown a better way and understand why our original decision was incorrect.....all without losing our life....early intervention by instructors.... (before the problem develops)....inhibits student development.............

 

the "trick" is to know when to intervene..................

A couple of things worry me here but first I would like to make a couple of assumptions, forgive me if they are wrong. From your original post and the comment about the student not getting his licence that day, it sounds like it was a test. In addition, the fact that you flew out of cloud suggests the aircraft was appropriately equipped to handle IMC and is therefore likely to be GA. From this one could reasonably assume it was a flight test for PPL, CPL or something similar which involved a nav.

 

With this in mind you should have had the weather before you departed which would have no doubt shown TS in the area you intended to fly in. So to embark on a nav into a TS is the first error in my eyes. That said, we'll keep going assuming the TS's were overlooked. We can also assume the test was not one for an instrument rating (again, based on the whole VFR in IMC topic here) so eyes should have been outside the cockpit. Why would someone who was keeping a lookout keep flying towards a TS? Perhaps a good time to intervene? On top of this, TS's break wings off. Flying into cloud is one thing but a TS? That sounds dangerous to me and not a lesson that should be taught in a real plane, in a real TS with real lives at stake.

 

I'm with Motz on this - I think you owe more to your student than to put his life (and yours for that matter) at risk.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea, see mr student, notice how the aircraft is spiraling towards the ground? That's because the wings have clapped hands. What lessons have we learned today?

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Is there any possible posative spin I could put on your claims?

 

Note from moderator - The original post you are referring to has been removed as the actions depicted by the poster, are definately not supported by this moderator.

 

 

[Tomo]

Hey, let's not start an argument on who's better...

 

I'm more interested in learning from the mistake (s) myself than anything else.

 

Just a thought....

 

 

[motzartmerv]

??tomo??...where did that come from??