VMC into IMC and "proud of it"

[Tomo]

Nothing against you motz or Cfi, just been reading through the thread and I guess I'm in a bad mood! Sorry if you took offense, I'm just a little over people trying to prove their better than the others. And so may have taken it the wrong way. I apologize.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I wouldn't either CFI...

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Tomo, no-ones trying to prove they are better than anyone else mate.

 

This is a forum and by definition is for discussion. If I (and others) read something that points to dangerous behavior than you better believe the issue will be discussed.

 

 

[Ultralights]

dont know about some of you guys, but i prefer to learn from the mistakes of others, not experience them myself. i try to impart this same method of learning to my student, so instead of letting a student fly into a TS, i will stop them from doing it and explain in the debreif the dangers of letting them continue into the TS and either through video, atsb reports or whatever, and hopefully, the student will have learned from the mistakes of others about the dangers of flying into a TS.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Edited by Moderator - We are watching and will step in. This is a great topic and should be discussed in a civil manner.

 

(Moderators are watching and will step in - keep it civil gents!)

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Edited by moderator. This thread has fantastic learning benefits.

 

Lets see what we can all learn from this..

 

I have to admit that cfi's original post did cause me to raise one eyebrow mentally, but I thought I'd wait and watch to see what materialised. He never tells the whole story in just one post, and thus usually provokes an interesting and often vigourous discussion. I do have several questions that so far haven't been asked:-

 

1. Was the student actually doing a flying test, or was "he didn't get his licence that day..." just a turn of phrase to indicate that the student had exhibited poor judgement in flying into conditions beyond his capability? The reason I ask this question is that in my mind, a student who has arrived at test time, should have been aware of the sorts of weather conditions to keep away from.
    
    
   
2. Was it really a TS or perhaps a CB, or just a CU? I know that weather researchers do fly into TS with instrumented aircraft, but the aircraft they use are somewhat bigger and stronger than RAA types.
    
    
   
3. What were the circumstances that led to the student's actions? It seems incredible and unlikely that a student would say, oh there's a TS; I think I'll fly through it!
    
    
   
4. How was risk assessed to determine that allowing the student to fly into a TS was suitable as a lesson, rather than a potentially terminal action?
    
    
   

 

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

There's TS's, and BTS's, and INTS's - which one was it?

 

 

[facthunter]

There's phenomenon called a TS and another one called BS. Long before the student entered the "TS" he infringed VFRules. FAIL at that point if you want a time. The "decision" would be wrong to enter cloud unless suitable rated and equipped. You might enter a TS which would be a CB (cumulo-nimbus type cloud) IF you HAD to but you NEVER really have to. You might go through a line of Cb with radar or visual diverting around the main cells but you still have the danger of turbulence (severe), heavy rain, lightning strike, hail etc. You're all nice people. Don't get mad. CFI does this sort of thing. Don't fall for it. Nev

 

 

[motzartmerv]

As usual Nev, your right on the money.

 

However I'm not mad. I wasnt the student in the aircraft when the instructor flew it into a TS, lost control and then recovered the spiral dive, to 'demonstrate' to me that its a bad idea.

 

If I was that student, mad wouldn't be a strong enough word.

 

cheers

 

 

[Bigglesworth]

I haven't seen the CASA video, but rest assured that my training included a pretty simple but lasting illustration. ("Close your eyes, I'll throw the plane about a bit, now get her straight. Ok, open eyes, and now recover." <I was in a balanced and level turn, pretty good in hindsight>)

 

But I do remember reading a book by one of the early aircraft manufacturers in England who was saying that a lot of pilots used to go through cloud to get above it with hardly any instruments (not to mention WWI pilots hiding in it (ref username)) and he can only conclude that if you don't know the danger you're more relaxed and likely to hold a steady climb, whereas once you focus, you're gone.

 

I do want to get my instrument rating. A bit of time in a hood was more mind-bending than hallucinogenic drugs (not that I'd know) and I'd like to get on top of it someday.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes they did, and the death rate was horrific but by the 1960's people started to learn about the "leans" and understand the anatomy of the inner ear and a lot of people are around today as a result. RA Aircraft usually don't have good enough instruments for instrument flying, apart from the need to be substantially trained, and conduct I think from memory at least 2 hours a month IFR in an IFR certified aircraft, so that's a lot of ongoing expense for a start.

 

 

[farri]

I'm just a little over people trying to prove their better than the others.

I say this with no offence meant to anyone!!!

 

The simple fact is that there are those who are better than others and by those passing on their knowledge and true life experiences, everyone gets to learn something!!!

 

There`s a big difference between someone braging about what they can do, and someone saying, " I did this and that.......this is is what the result was and this is what I think about it".

 

Frank.

 

Ps, To all the ladies on this forum, who are mothers.......... Happy Mothers Day!

 

 

[deadstick]

No one should be allowed to make a potential fatal mistake to illistarate a point in training, Airmanship dictates we learn from others mistakes and that is where our rules have come from, others mistakes, in this day and age we don't need to demonstrate that weather is dangerous and I shudder to think how many pilots have died through a factor generated by it or deliberate violation of the rules. With many hours on the clocks both in high performance and low I will still avoid it like the plague, it limits your options for safe flight and opens you up to extra potential problems should something go wrong. Regardless how safe you feel, without an appropriate rating don't do it 1. it will get you eventually and 2. it makes us look unprofessional and dangerous. The only time an unrated pilot should consider flight into IMC is when all other avenues have been exhausted and the life of yourself and any passenger is already in danger. If you find yourself in a situation where your life depends on descent or climbing through, trim and balance are your best friend.