Have our Grass Roots changed?

[farri]

Hey!...................... Can it get any closer to grass roots than this!!!

 

 

Frank.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

I have heard a lot of this guy, Dell. The same guy from Dell laptops, apparently he is a real PPG freak and is right out there. he has done a lot of research/development on electric PPG as well

 

 

[Bubbleboy]

This thing is fantastic!..and affordable....

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

OK the battery scene. yes these will be a great battery when they are fully developed and on the market but it will be some time away the safety of them will be a big thing along with the fast recharge/discharge without the heat. until they come along we will have to do with lipo types by the time the others come along those now using lipos etc will be coming to the end of their life cycle hopefully it will be good timing. Until the new technology comes along we will see an increase in garage and back of car fires as RC modelers and experimenters get careless in the handling of lipos and their charges.

 

back to thread

 

has grass roots changed? sure has and for various reasons. mostly the change has been directed by the regulating types and designers/ manufactures. The regulators and i will not go into to much detail, need to build an industry for flying schools etc. So a large class of basic grass roots types that need little training and regulation don't produce much income for either A regulatory body or a flying school. On the other hand a high performing aircraft needs lots of hours and study to be able to be flown competently. So a good return could be expected from them. add on a few endorsements passenger carrying x country nav and after the basics are completed then you have a return on the initial certificate. As for manufacturing the investment of design, tooling up, certifying and marketing is not much more than for a basic single seater and the return will be greater for a bigger sticker price. Another is the personal view of some that are in the position of calling the shots. If someone does not like grass roots types or feels threatened that they could take money out of their pocket then they will do what they can to over regulate them to make them less attractive.

 

Why is there a good market for grass roots types in the US and not here? Australia has been over regulated to make them unviable.

 

 

[XAIRVTW]

As I was reading Heon post I totaled up all my invoices from the build of my Xair Hanuman 4 stroke total was 42 gs still an affordable build & its VH registered. It has a Jabiru 2200.

 

 

 

[HEON]

Xair looks nice. At $42000 looks a great aircraft. Out of interest, what is the engine?

 

Less dollars than my Drifter and a lot (most?) of four stroke Trikes.

 

 

[dazza 38]

I also work in oil exploration and have done so since 1972. My work involves engineering exploration equipment and software. I do not listen to "Bob Brown" but I do listen to geophysicists. And I (in the company of thousands of others) spent the 1970s and 80s trying to prove Hubbert wrong.PS. Do you have any coordinates for all these capped fields?

 

(Some language removed - Moderator)

I have not worked in the Oil exploration fields, I worked on Tornado Jets whilst in Saudi Arabia. I dont have the GPS coordinates for the Capped fields here, as they must be secret.I have heard this from a number of sources who do work in the industry.It is probably not correct, thats what i heard.Besides dont let the truth get in the way of a good Story.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Getting back to the original Grass roots Q- May I suggest that many people buy what they learn to fly- and with a large proportion of schools using plastic and high end RA a/c then that's what the new pilots look for. Try and get a HP tricycle pilot jumping into a LP tailwheel by choice , the room goes quiet except for the hairy chested hecklers from days gone by and then they don't want to get left behind when the gang blasts off to cross countrysville.

 

I am totally for getting back to basics yet still commit both every weekend. Bring back the Drifter days and now with Fishers 912 powered unit it is a real option for schools and let's not forget Tony H's beloved Thruster and many others. And trikes have always filled this void, we often get weird looks when we tell people where we have flown from " in that thing"

 

Two stroke insurance ( or lack thereof) killed many of the early rag and tubers for training unless you're happy to put your house, life and assets up for the first law suit after a failed EFATO, but with new engines and better retro designs we can all look forwards at going backwards in strong winds- if you get my drift! ( Pun).

 

 

[rdarby]

Looking in the RAAus magazine I see several planes for sale around the $40,000 mark. 2 seater, all metal with 80hp rotax is an example, in the Zenith 601.

 

I don't think cost and grass roots are related anymore. If plastic isn't grass roots, but I can get a used Jabiru in the magazine for under $40,000, hasn't the game changed somewhat?

 

If you are going to consider a dollar value to relate to grass roots, then there are actually a lot of options, and I think that when someone in a drifter sees some plastic go by, they need to consider that the plastic may have cost less than the drifter, especially if second hand!

 

Think about it. The world has changed. Cheap no longer means slow and cold flying. But expensive also seems close to GA these days.

 

Ryan

 

 

[Tomo]

Don't hinder modernization... but embrace the past if that's your thing. I don't think you will ever be able to talk someone who doesn't like the 'grass roots' type flying into it... You either like it or you don't - so it seems.

 

I fly from 95:10 to GA... love both, and both have their place...

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...we can all look forwards at going backwards in strong winds- if you get my drift! ( Pun).

That would have to incorporate the much touted reverse landing technique!

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

u are right ryan....raa is getting soooo much closer to ga...hope the regulators dont decide to combine the 2!!

Seems it may be heading that way. Certainly would take a lot of work load off CASA. Now there is the up to 10,000ft and increased weight the gap is closing.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

capped oil. There was apparently much exploration done around the Gippsland area during the early seventies. I remember something about Ampol drilling and capping quite a few wellsin the area.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

ampol sold the wells to coke who sell bottled water for more than pertol. somehow it makes sense.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Adding to the current list ie- Fisher 912. How about the Quiksilver GT 500 with the 4 stroke donk they advertise ?.Or the 2 seat Chinook which has be advertised ATM(apart from the insurance issues of using a 2 stroke).

 

 

[rdarby]

There is a Jab on eBay for $30,000 and they are asking for offers under that. Got about 500 hours left on the engine I think. It starts getting very affordable. Yes you need to maintain an older one more, but I have spent more than $30,000 in a year to a flying school before!

 

What's the insurance issue with a 2 stroke? Don't they like them?

 

Sad fact is I once owned a Fisher Super Koala, and never even flew it, was still training in the school plane. It was bright red, real sexy looking. Sold it for the same price to some guys who got it going and had a great time. That was 10 years ago, and I only started flying again last year!

 

The thing with cheap is, you can buy it and not feel it if things go wrong, not to the point of needing a second mortage!

 

 

[farri]

I don`t think we can consider bying second hand as being cheap!

 

It is definalely cheaper than buying new, but someone had to buy it at new price,in the first insatant.

 

The simple truth and fact is! The more sophisticated the aircraft become, the more expensive the training and ownership will be, and the wheel will have been re-invented!!!

 

Frank.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Don't hinder modernization... but embrace the past if that's your thing. I don't think you will ever be able to talk someone who doesn't like the 'grass roots' type flying into it... You either like it or you don't - so it seems.I fly from 95:10 to GA... love both, and both have their place...

Hey Tomo- take up Hang Gliding I tasted plenty of Grass roots when I face planted for the first two mths. Training hills suck, at least in later days our students got to use a turf farm, the grass was better quality, not for smokin tho:no way:

 

 

[old man emu]

I think there are two streams of activity in the type of flying RAA members do.

 

The first stream is the evolution of the early Under 300 ft, minimal aircraft. As the years passed, those first adherents gained the skills to permit them to build and fly aircraft that had covered fuselages, more efficient engines and the capacity to be flown away from home base. The aircraft they now fly are still pretty basic puddle jumpers. These people tend to be young adventurous types, or older, steady types who enjoy the challenge of building an aircraft and spending their spare time tinkering with it.

 

The second stream consists of the Baby Boomers who are accessing their superannuation and life savings to do what they have had to postpone through the years of raising a family. Now they have the time and money to learn to fly, but not the time or inclination to build an airplane. These are the type of people who buy plastic fantastics and are happy to leave the tinkering on them to L2's and LAME's. They are the Grey Nomads of the air. They take advantage of the less stringent medical requirments of an RAA licence.

 

I'd call the members of the first stream the Grass Roots members. These are the people who will make advances in aircraft design and manufacturing practices. The second stream types are the ones who will push the boundaries of where and how high we can fly.

 

Since both streams have valuable contributions to make, I suggest that any "Them and Us" demarkations should be nipped in teh bud.

 

Old Man Emu

 

Who has a toe in both streams

 

 

[dazza 38]

I agree Guys, but until the mentality of "Some " GA schools accept that we are all aviators sharing the same airspace. Things wont change.The GA school that have not accepted us are the ones going broke." IMO

 

Not all, I would like to make that clear. Divided we fail, united we will succeed. IMHO.

 

PS_I have learned more stick and rudder skills flying RAA than I did flying GA FWIW

 

 

[Yenn]

I like the grass roots type of flying and I enjoyed a Thruster for a few years, but what caused me to change to something a bit faster was the realisation that at low speed you may not get there. One trip of about 70 miles in the Thruster had me contemplating turning round and going back until I was 20 miles from my destination. That was a 30 knot plus headwind and a 50kt cruise. You can run out of fuel before you are halfway there.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Well there's no point using a motor bike to pull stumps, its horses for courses.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

PS_I have learned more stick and rudder skills flying RAA than I did flying GA FWIW

 

Ahh there goes talk about those things on the floor... somtimes I think the student handbook should have a lost & found section. It's amazing when they actually start to use them in harmony. Good one Dazz.

 

 

[Tomo]

To right Neil, I find it quite strange in the Cessna that you don't have to use much rudder at all...