Search And Rescue

[dazza 38]

I was apart of " Australian Motorcycle Search and Rescue". It died in the backside, even though it was a good idea. Politics got in the way.Not with in AMSR, but the QLD government and the SES, Rangers etc.They didnt like dirt bike riders being able to ride within restricted areas even though they where looking for a missing person.

 

 

[Guest RossCJ]

Have you spoken to anyone yet CJ?

Not yet turboplanner, just on here for the moment, to get an idea of interest outside of my own. I do plan to speak to as many people as possible to get different perspectives though, at some point in the not too distant future. I have no immediate plan to get anything other than feedback from others at this stage. One question I really would like answered by anyone knowledgeable in current regulations is: Are there currently any rules/regulations, restricting or removing all-together the use of sports/recreational aircraft (such as trikes/gyro's) from assisting with Search And Rescues in Australia? Or is it mainly just personal perceptions that restrict their use?

 

 

[facthunter]

It's not hard to envisage that untrained personel could be a hazard, in the search area. ( as news types can be). Provided this aspect is addressed.. Maybe it's worth considering. The spotting and piloting should be kept separate. Nev

 

 

[Guest RossCJ]

Personally, I believe trikes or gyro's would be ideal for locating people with GPS PLB's (personal locator beacons), that are in distress & have been activated. Let the choppers etc look after the more difficult situations, while trikes/gyro's look after their local communities, within their own limitations, not someone elses. I guess, when it comes down to it. It's really about dealing with people's ego's in a more cooperative way. I also agree that good training would be extremely important as well as an excellent attitude.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

I think the advantage that the Barcaldine Qld Club were pursuing, was the local knowledge of pilots, their prior SES or Emergency Services involvement / training and flying experience (knew what the land looked like & could navigate). In their minds the scenarios were: vehicles overdue (probably on a little travelled back road), person lost on a property (they measure in Sq kms out there, sparsely treed), plane missing / down.

 

The understanding was that more serious search & resuce aircraft were a long way from the area and would take a while for the decision to call and to arrive. The previous searches that instigated the offer of help were a woman driving to a property to work (not familiar with the outback) - the car broke down, she waited hours with no water in 40+ temps then decided to walk to the homestead. Alarm was raised hours later after a call to town established she had left on the two hour drive. Thinking was an ultralight could get up high and note any cars not moving and report so someone on the ground could drive there and investigate. The woman died of thirst before she was found, her body clearly visable from the air. A similar thing happened with a German tourist who took a wrong turning and ended up out of fuel on a back road for 5 days. He was found by a property owner flying home (any car not moving is a cause for concern) who took fuel out to him, he was well provisioned, and he ended up staying at the property for a few days.

 

Outback Qld is flat country, sparsely timbered and great visability. The Club wasn't interested in joining in intensive searches in tiger country, or with lots of other aircraft. They were looking at getting a bird's eye view and getting out early. Being experienced searchers they knew all the tricks of the trade, how people go slightly off course, the direction determined by their Left or Right handedness, when faced with up or down hill, which way they choose, distance possible on foot from vehicle given elapsed time etc. On the ground distance visability is hampered by heat haze, which isn't such an issue above.

 

Their heart was in the right place, they had a fair idea of what they were doing. But when you promote something like this the organisation has to look at all scenarios over many districts, before approving. In their minds they would have been thinking about the risks of using small aircraft in tiger country to search for a small target, possibly in conjunction with a crowded airspace and airband. I can see why their answer was No Thank You.

 

Sue

 

 

[Guest RossCJ]

Yes Sue, you bring up a good point about local knowledge in remote areas. I sometimes compare what I'm talking about, to the story of "The Hair & The Tortois". The brain is often much faster than the legs!

 

Trikes would be ideal in dropping first aid/survival kit, water & food to someone or a number of people who have gone missing, lost or activated PLB in distress etc. Of course, if it was safe to land, they could offer first aid/water/food personally if required & call in any assistance if necessary.

 

Trikes could also fly in pairs quite safely with a spare seat in the back of the second/third/or fourth aircraft etc, for rescued individuals. If trikes can not bring out everyone safely, then call in the rescue helicopter, if one is available?

 

We're mostly talking first aid here and not mass evacuations. Leave that to the Army or Navy.

 

 

[Dieselten]

Another thing to keep in mind is that the higher up any organisation you go the more the office-holders become "role-players" instead of "task-achievers". So, trying to get a senior official to approve something he doesn't know anything about invariably gets a negative response because the new idea is not perceived as helping the official build his empire, increase his prestige, or gain promotion. He's a role-player. Whether the SAR effort is successful or not, he'll still look good.

 

Often the best approach is to simply go out and do the job and achieve a successful result. Task achieved. Once presented with a fait accompli and the usual media coverage, few bureaucrats or senior officials will nay-say the use of non-standard assets, or non-approved personnel. What they will do is find a way to take all the credit.

 

Basically the blokes on the ground are task-achievers. The higher up the food-chain you go, no matter what the organisation or how good the intentions, you just meet layer after layer of role-players and empire-builders.

 

Having seen some classic examples of what happens when the bureacrats are left to run the show and ignore advice from the chaps at the "sharp-end" (remember the Four Corners program entitled "Search Without Rescue"?), I'd think twice, and twice again, before I ever offered my services in any capacity to anyone involved in Search and Rescue.

 

I also visted AMSA HQ in Canberra quite a while ago and after that visit I decided to go down with the ship rather than await rescue. It's a quicker way of dying.

 

BTW, for those who may think I have become disillusioned, you are completely wrong. I had no illusions to start with.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Hey Dieselten,

 

What you said really resonates with my experiences. The higher up they are the more "risk averse" they get. They guy on the ground will go out and do it and probably gets a wrap over the knuckles if he didn't jump right in and do it and if he did and it didn't work out. The senior manager can easily justify leaving things in danger while either following the manual, policies, risk assessing etc. At the inquiry they fall back on this and keep pointing out they had to the make "the tough decisions". When it finishes happily they are the first in front of a camera. Our recent floods - the locals upstream were warning of the huge body of water coming for 2 days previous - management ignored them "preferring to wait for official word" hundreds of homes were unprepared - they then blamed the officials for not warning them sooner. They then get a pat on the back for a good job done. So they are now going to put in another automatic river level gauge, and still not listen to the locals. One of our guys who persisted in ringing to warn them was asked "and what would you know about it?" he pointed out he had lived there 70 years and had recorded river and rain for 120yrs+ and this is the biggest river rise ever. He wasn't "Official Advice" and so was repeated ignored. Another lot refused to allow owners to retrieve their equipment because there was a flood coming ... the locals wanted to keep an eye on the river and take drivers down in a ute so they could drive their stuff out, and if the watchmen decided the water was getting too close to overtopping then they could abandon the equipment and jump in the ute and move out of harm's way. The more senior managers decided not to allow anything until they had done a complete risk assessment. Three hours later the water came over and drowned everything. Success! no personnel were harmed! I actually sat through a presentation by senior management saying what a raging success this strategy was.

 

In outback areas you can get some height and it is amazing how far you can see. I took a tourist up once and he noticed something I took for granted. The earth curves and you can actually see it, that is you can see to the horizon as it disappears. With a bit of height you can survey quite a number of roads, especially as there are few trees and a stationary car stands out. You can then direct a vehicle to the spot, otherwise there are 1,000s of kms of back roads, that may be closed in sections which is no obstacle to an aircraft. Most outback ultralights have UHF, as do most stations and local cars, so you can check with people who know or are closer to the action.

 

Sue

 

 

[allowera]

Perhaps an approach similar to the NSW Rural Fire Service's use of trail bikes could be used?

 

There are minimum requirements such as :- Registered vehicles only; Operating in pairs; Wearing appropriate PPE; Carriage of fireground radio; Carriage of maps, water, first aid; Ability to be self sufficient; And (my favourite) a means of lighting fire.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Dieselton and FV, this is the current Australian sickness. On the whole risk assessment reduces death and injury but in this early period there is too much detail missing, and one particular aspect is not using local knowledge, or having sub set procedures for specialised skills, or in fact just what this thread is all about - NSW Rural Fire Service looks like they are getting on to this.

 

 

[bones]

Great topic but I can add a few things here, from personal experience. Search and rescue work is nearly always conducted in remote, rugged and unforgiving terrain and on nearly every occasion I have been involved with, the weather has been terrible.Search and rescue work is not easy. Searching by air is not just flying around looking for people on the ground. Even with a spotter on the ground it is physically very demanding and draining on both the pilot and spotters. Anyone who has searched intensively for someone in even moderately timbered areas will tell you that after about 15 mins your eyes start playing tricks on you and you need to be acutely aware of the spatial disorientation effects. One up in a trike or other smaller craft would be very demanding on the pilot, not even taking into account the terrain, conditions etc at the time. To effectively search by air, you have to be trained and be aware of the numerous issues effecting your body and mind when doing it.

This is all true, nothing like flying for 8 hrs trying to find cattle in country you can hardly see the ground in, how ever as stated you do after awhile tune your eyes for what you looking for and nothing else, it is VERY hard to see a guy on a 4 wheeler after awhile.

 

The one piont i would like to bring up is this, a couple of years ago, a glider went down just east of YCHT, i was at the airport the afternoon he went missing, and was asked if i could be there at first light to help look, of course i was, well after 3 hrs flying with my misses for a spotter, i was working my way back for a fuel up and go again, then the powers to be FOUND out :cops:that i was flying a GYRO in the search, i WAS ORDERED to land and take no further part in the search, however they were happy for a few FW a/c with the same motors to continue in the search, and be paid for the fuel.

 

I of course didnt listen to them and continued anyway, the wreckage was found within a search area that a C210 had covered that morning in heavy fog

 

 

[Kev]

The Poms already have a system in place. www.airsearch.co.uk

 

 

[Guest RossCJ]

Thankyou for all your valuable comments on this subject! I must apologise for my recent absence over the last 7 weeks, due to un-forscene circumstances. I am now available for further discussion on this topic, so feel free to send in your points of view.

 

RossCJ.

 

 

[Guest RossCJ]

Thank's Kev for the link to the Airsearch website, this seems very close to the mark in regards to what I am thinking of in using trikes or microlights for assisting with Search & Rescue. I've also included this link on my website for future reference.

 

RossCJ.

 

 

[Litespeed]

Personally, I would be happy to just get up and have a go in the right conditions.

 

Bugger the authorities attitude.

 

If they wish to assist great, if not get out of the way.

 

We are way too restricted in our attitudes here in Australia.

 

I have heard of many searches that failed due to such attitudes when people die due to to bureaucrats.

 

In the Queensland floods so called experts refused to allow private turbine choppers to help with medical/emergency supplies and even threatened arrest. If some people died from lack of medicine- tuff.

 

We are getting to the point where the Professionals will not do what is expected in their role due to risk. Bugger that- that is their JOB.

 

Many Police no longer try to negoitiate or put themselves in any possible risk- they just shoot and say problem solved.

 

I work with the mentally disturbed with disabilities and I see this attitude all the time.

 

A inquest in on now where a man was stabbing himself and the choice was to shoot him dead. No one bar the man with knife was at risk- where are the ethics of our professionals?

 

The number of similar cases has risen drastically in the last decade and no change appears likely.

 

If we can't expect those who are trained to accept the risk they are paid for, we have no hope of been allowed to accept personal risk to save some one in need.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like police etc but can not stomach some of their choices.

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest iPilot]

I spent two and a half years working as a contractor for the Australian Maritime Safety Authority and with what I've experienced plus my time flying RAAus and as a CPL(H) holder, any asset in the air, private or commercial, will greatly enhance the chances of survival. SES have trained aerial observers and some country towns and remote areas have Tier 4 assets working on behalf of AMSA.

 

If you know someone is missing and you have the ability to do so, I'd say do what ever you can to better a victims chance of survival. I really can't stress that enough.

 

 

[Suitman]

I even think that a powered parachute (in the right conditions) is the perfect search platform for missing persons. They fly slow enough to thoroughly search a given area, yet are of course faster than searching on foot. Can circle to not take the observers eyes off the objective (fuel limitations apply obviously), and provide ground crews with pinpoint accuracy as to location, via GPS.

 

Peter