CASA pops around to say hi and why we hadn't challenged them

[jerrajerra]

Afternoon.

 

Two CASA blokes decided to drop in today to say "hi" to my flying instructor. They walked their way through the office door leading through the hangar and onto airside. There they stood for 10min observing my fliying instructor performing what ever task he was at that point and I conducting a pre flight inspection of the training aircraft. Flying instructor had his ASIC clearly vsible and I did not have mine as it is yet to be issued. Flying Instructor was walking away from the training aircraft, with me still performing the checks, towards the hangar when he was stopped in his path by CASA and was asked as to why he had not challenged them and requested their identification. Both the FI and I were about 15m seperated when he was stopped and questioned. Anyhow, CASA advised my FI that as I had not yet received an ASIC that a visitors pass should have been issued as well as of course him having to be basically holding my hand and not be seperated. I should have been under closer escort. My FI questioned their advice re Visitors Pass but CASA was certain it was a requirement.

 

I have not been able to locate any legislation stating that an individual under escort of an ASIC holder requires a visitors pass. I should think that no such legislation exists.

 

Also why would the FI need to challenge EVERY individual that uses the hangar, accesses airside etc. Are ASIC holders expected to question passenger movements too.

 

They have an ASIC so who cares?

 

Have you heard of such a request before?

 

Chris

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Chris as you do not have an ASIC issued to you yet, you must be under direct supervision and never left alone. You must stay with your instructor. Your instructor should have challenged the two CASA blokes as well as anyone else that is wandering around the secure area, not just those that acessed the secure area via the hanger. There may be further questions about how anyone can enter the hanger via the office area. The hanger is a secure area as well. Visitors pass I have been issued a 'Sterile Visitors Pass" at the Sydney International Terminal several times to do business with my clients. Took almost an hour had my photo taken fill in this and that. Spent 30 minutes with my clients then signed out at security and left with my "Sterile Visitors Pass" still stuck on my shirt. I mailed it back to the head of security with my opinions enclosed.

 

To many loose ends in this ASIC thing. Are you sure the area where your hanger is is a secure area?

 

Ozzie

 

 

[facthunter]

You would have to be aware of the status of the aerodrome. Is it a security controlled area? We don't have to have ASIC's at all places. You show your place as Pt Hedland. THAT WOULD be a secure aerodrome At least some of it. Local aerodrome authorities produce their individual security plans, so there could be variations.. If so I'm afraid they CASA were only doing their job and could have applied penalties I am sure.. Sorry Mate....Nev

 

 

[poteroo]

If you are airside on a full security airport, then even inside your hangar is considered to be the same as out on the tarmac. You're fair game.

 

I'm not aware of an airport where the security requirements change with location - once you are airside. In our case, we can use vehicles without signage etc, only on the taxiways adjacent the hangars - but not out on the main taxiways.

 

Get used to this stuff. Restrain your initial physical inclinations, and don't say any more than you have to.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Even at an aerodrome that is not classified as "Secure", anyone who walks onto the taxiway and who you do not recognise as a pilot should be approached to ascertain "how can I help you". Not necessarily from a security perspective, but from a safety perspective. They have walked into a "live prop area" and quite possibly do not understand that they have done so, or the nature of the danger.

 

You don't have to brashly "challenge", but simply to politely ask "can I help you", and if appropriate advise them that for their own safety they need to remain off the taxiway (procedures, signs and barriers will vary with location). Stand in their path to prevent them wandering further onto the taxiway, while you talk with them. Alternately, if they have a reason to be there, you can escort them to ensure they are safe and tell them that is what you are doing.

 

The same applies for your PAX. they need to understand the potential dangers, where to wait, what not to do, and not to wander around. As PIC you are responsible for their safety, even on the ground.

 

 

[Ryanm]

The guys from CASA are must be displaying their ASIC and CASA IDs at all times when on a site, if they dont, you have the right to deny them entry. So why would anyone challenge a CASA rep as they would be displaying their ASIC???

 

 

[jerrajerra]

The guys from CASA are must be displaying their ASIC and CASA IDs at all times when on a site, if they dont, you have the right to deny them entry. So why would anyone challenge a CASA rep as they would be displaying their ASIC???

Exactly, why? But that's what they put forward to my FI.

 

Thanks your all response, great

 

 

[kaz3g]

If you are airside on a full security airport, then even inside your hangar is considered to be the same as out on the tarmac. You're fair game.I'm not aware of an airport where the security requirements change with location - once you are airside. In our case, we can use vehicles without signage etc, only on the taxiways adjacent the hangars - but not out on the main taxiways.

 

Get used to this stuff. Restrain your initial physical inclinations, and don't say any more than you have to.

 

happy days,

As I recall, some airport operators declare only a section of the aerodrome to be a security area and use painted blue lines to delineate it.

 

The AAAA was at Griffiths last year and despite the fact that they have an RPT service, our members were allowed full use of the airfield apart from the terminal area (mit blue lines) without an ASIC.

 

Everyone with a PPL must have at least an AVID and I think this applies to RA too?

 

I gave up and now pay for an ASIC even though my rebel heart would have me refuse to comply with one of the most stupidly regulated requirements I've ever come across.

 

Why isn't my PPL and/or RA Certificate a photo ID with encoded recognition capability like my passport? And why isn't it renewable say every 6 years or 3 medicals instead of the 2 years I get on an ASIC? My PPL is a paper licence with what appears to be a black and white photocopy of a photo of me on it.... these went out with the Ark for goodness sake.

 

And why does the ASIC cost the earth? A working with children check only costs $38!

 

kaz

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Remember the game these guys play is called "Intimidation"

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...Everyone with a PPL must have at least an AVID and I think this applies to RA too?...

RAA don't need an ASIC unless they need to operate out of or land at a Secure aerodrome. AFAIK, an AVID is not available to RAA.

An AVID only applies to a single aerodrome and thus, for flight crew, has limited utility. Probably more applicable to ground staff that work at the particular aerodrome.

 

PPL applicants apply to CASA for an ASIC and need as a pre-requisite, an Aviation Reference Number. As RAA members don't have an ARN, they cannot apply for an ASIC through CASA, and apply through RAA instead. I believe that RAA liases directly with the various security authorities, and does not just pass it through CASA.

 

 

[old man emu]

What happens if I get a job driving a refuelling truck on Mascot Airport, and don't have any desire to fly myself? I wouldn't have an ARN. but I could still get an ASIC card.

 

OME

 

 

[kaz3g]

RAA don't need an ASIC unless they need to operate out of or land at a Secure aerodrome. AFAIK, an AVID is not available to RAA.

 

Yes on both counts...

 

An AVID only applies to a single aerodrome and thus, for flight crew, has limited utility. Probably more applicable to ground staff that work at the particular aerodrome.

 

AVID's apply generally as they are a security check that goes with the CASA pilot licence rather than a check for any one location. Mine has expired now but it didn't specify any particular airport. AVID's last for 5 years whereas ASIC's only last for 2. Only an ASIC can be used at security controlled airports.

 

At a minimum, all pilots 18 or over must undergo the background checks for an AVID. Only those pilots who require access to a secure area of a security controlled airport will need to undergo the more robust background checks for an ASIC.

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_90101

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

....... will need to undergo the more robust background checks for an ASIC.

The oldfart in me thinks that the only robust thing that occurs is the assult on my Wallet.....Still no-one has ever rammed a drfiter into centerpoint so it must work!! altjhough if I were king for a day, being an active member of this forum would be all thats needed as I havent seen a single akbah or jihad in anyposting here. That'd be just as effective I reckon...

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...AVID's apply generally as they are a security check that goes with the CASA pilot licence rather than a check for any one location. Mine has expired now but it didn't specify any particular airport. AVID's last for 5 years whereas ASIC's only last for 2. Only an ASIC can be used at security controlled airports..

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_90101

Thanks Kaz. Haven't read it for some time :-)

 

At a minimum, all pilots 18 or over must undergo the background checks for an AVID. Only those pilots who require access to a secure area of a security controlled airport will need to undergo the more robust background checks for an ASIC.

Clearly CASA don't think RAA Pilot Certificate holders are "Pilots". I haven't had any background checks done for that purpose and I certainly don't have an AVID although I have been pondering whether to apply for an ASIC... trouble is the cost is quite substantial for something I'll only need every blue moon!!!

 

 

[jerrajerra]

ASICs, VICs, supervision etc found in the Aviation Transport Security Regulations: http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Series/F2005L00366

 

 

[motzartmerv]

In the years since it came about, i have been asked for my ASIC once. The gentleman that asked me did not have one clearly displayed ( a rex ground handler). I told him mine was in the aircraft and could get it if he wanted to see it. He replied "not much good in the aeroplane mate"..When I asked him where his was he said it was in his office. Bet ya can't guess what my response was.......:csm:

 

 

[ossie]

What happens if I get a job driving a refuelling truck on Mascot Airport, and don't have any desire to fly myself? I wouldn't have an ARN. but I could still get an ASIC card.OME

Then, your employer applies for an ARN on your behalf, and you must sit and pass the Radio Operators License exam.

 

 

[facthunter]

The ARN is used as a reference in all matters with CASA. The RAAus one does te same with RAAus. On the question of the Flight Safety Digest, I think a request will get you put on the list for mail-out. It's a good thing to read and there are a lot of self test ouestions at the back. Not all of the contents are relevent but most is. Nev

 

 

[djpacro]

What happens if I get a job driving a refuelling truck on Mascot Airport, and don't have any desire to fly myself? I wouldn't have an ARN. but I could still get an ASIC card.OME

You don't need an ARN to get an ASIC - your employer will get to sign the application form to certify the need - the ASIC won't be issued by CASA, instead one of the others.

 

 

[facthunter]

Some ASIC's are restricted on the areas that access is allowed to. I think the one issued by RAAus for us, is an Accces all areas. You still need a legal reason to be there though. You can't just swan around....Nev

 

 

[kaz3g]

.... Clearly CASA don't think RAA Pilot Certificate holders are "Pilots".

Hi David

 

It almost seems sometimes that they have forgotten that RA aircraft can be more than a rag with a bit of tube and a lawnmower engine.

 

Even though those basic flying machines are fun, the modern stuff can carry just as much trouble as a C150 or, for that matter, an old Auster like mine.

 

But neither of them holds as much as a cement truck and you don't need an ASIC or an Avid to drive one of those!

 

And you are right... the ASIC is ridiculously expensive for what it is (or is not).

 

kaz

 

 

[Guest sunfish]

1. The legislation says nothing about you having the responsibility to "challenge" anyone at all.

 

2. It also says nothing about a visitors pass, although your airport security manual might make that a requirement.

 

3, Those responsible for enforcing the law are the Australian Federal Police, not CASA.

 

4. "Under supervision" means that your passenger/student is expected to do exactly what they are told. It does not mean that you have to be handcuffed to them.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Sunfish said:

 

1. The legislation says nothing about you having the responsibility to "challenge" anyone at all.

 

2. It also says nothing about a visitors pass, although your airport security manual might make that a requirement.

 

I can't see anything in the Act or Regs regarding these contentions, either.

 

3. Those responsible for enforcing the law are the Australian Federal Police, not CASA.

 

There is a number of people who can enforce aviation security law but the circumtances in which each can do it varies. They include AFP, State Police, airport security guards, screening operators, and customs officers as well as any employee of the Department appointed as an inspector.

 

4. "Under supervision" means that your passenger/student is expected to do exactly what they are told. It does not mean that you have to be handcuffed to them.

 

I guess the issue is that an AOC holder and any pilot or owner would have to be polite because they can make life awfully difficult if you upset them.

 

kaz