ERSA on iPhone not for use in the air

[rdarby]

I was at a CASA briefing at Redcliffe tonight and questions were asked about electronic ERSA's. Turns out you can't use the ERSA iPhone app in the air, as the device is not something yet considered appropriate. Only certain electronic flight bags are considered secure, reliable, able to be integrated into the aircraft etc.

 

So carry your normal paper copy it seems.

 

Ryan

 

 

[Owi]

Oh, golly! It seems that these fellahs are clinging to the 20th century like their jobs depended on it. I'm surprised we moved beyond the sextant the way things are at the moment.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Whats the motto: We're not happy, till you're not happy?

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

I was at a CASA briefing at Redcliffe tonight and questions were asked about electronic ERSA's. Turns out you can't use the ERSA iPhone app in the air, as the device is not something yet considered appropriate. Only certain electronic flight bags are considered secure, reliable, able to be integrated into the aircraft etc.So carry your normal paper copy it seems.

 

Ryan

A slightly different spin... CASA has said (at Safety Seminars I have attended) that a phone, electronic diary or other means of reading ERSA and other documents which you are required to carry (such as aircraft manual etc..) can be carried electronically, provided they are resident on the device and not dependent on a network connection to access it. You must have obtained it directly from an approved source.. ie. downloaded the PDFs from Airservices web site.

The iPhone may be a special case, as I understand that it isn't much chop at reading PDFs and thus one means of carrying this info on the iPhone has involved converting the pages to JPG pictures. In such a case, they would not be directly from an authorised source.

 

Android phones don't have that issue as they are good at reading PDFs. I have created an "AIP" directory on my phone's SDcard and keep all the parts of AIP that I need on it. In other directories I carry the aircraft manuals, RAA Ops manual and other things.

 

In keeping with the fact that electronic devices can fail. I carry the information, maps and pages needed for a specific flight in paper form as well.

 

 

[Guest dad]

I don't have any issues reading Pdf's on my Iphone, in fact I have a number of complete issues of legislation, manuals,books and other pieces of information resident on my iphone in pdf format.

 

They are all easy to access and bookmarked.

 

 

[Tomo]

I don't have any issues reading Pdf's on my Iphone, in fact I have a number of complete issues of legislation, manuals,books and other pieces of information resident on my iphone in pdf format.They are all easy to access and bookmarked.

I've never had an issue with PDF either on my iPhone.

 

But all the same, I might be old hat, but there's nothing better than a piece of paper for information is there? My ERSA is a colourful decorated book with tabs here and there for my common aerodromes - takes me about 2 seconds to turn to a place and its' all there! :D Electronic is handy for planning maybe, but reading a small screen in flight, is not really looking out the window... And paper you can write on...

 

Mind you I'm not against going electronic.... it's just I like my book...

 

 

[kaz3g]

Oh, golly! It seems that these fellahs are clinging to the 20th century like their jobs depended on it. I'm surprised we moved beyond the sextant the way things are at the moment.

And what's wrong with a sextant??? Or dividers and parallel rules?

 

kaz

 

(who can't find a smilie with a boat ship in it)

 

 

[Piet Fil]

Kaz,

 

You are sounding like a ship driver who doesn't trust electronic charting (NCDS). BTW if you want a good read that involves usinga sextant whilst flying have a read of Sir Francis Chichesters biography.

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest OzRunways]

It is surprising that two different CASA people have two different opinions on this!

 

We've been told they are close to copying the FAA rules, which allow it to be used for private operations with no paper backups required but recommended. Hopefully we'll have that here soon. In the mean time, its a huge grey area; the rules were written before they thought of this possibility so they say: "[...] as published by Airservices or other authorised provider".

 

Anyway you have to follow what CASA say, not us, since they are the safety authority. Just like Garmin can't tell you that their 496 can be used for auto-land when coupled with your 2-axis autopilot!

 

 

[Admin]

Spoke to Air Services today and was told by one person that you can only view the pdf of an ERSA entry on the screen of your PC but can't download it...also spoke to another person who said you can download it but can't use it for commercial concerns but private use was ok...so I spoke to another person who has given me some other people to contact to find out...we WILL have ERSAs on the Recreational Flying GPS and EFB units even if I have to purchase a license but it is just a matter of finding the best option for everyone. However, I personally believe we should always carry a hard copy in the aircraft anyway as anything can happen to electronic gadgets with batteries etc, the only thing with a hard copy is you either spill your drink on it or it goes flying out the window in some circumstances but then again both of those scenarios would be the same for an electronic gadget and you have more chances with them to go bung.

 

In any case even if you have an electronic version of the ERSA or any other charts etc you STILL LEGALLY have to carry hard copies of the ERSA and WAC Charts in the cabin with you whether you use an phone, tablet pc, laptop or any other electronic device (unless off course the phone, tablet pc or laptop etc brand and model number is certified by CASA first)

 

 

[pradeep]

As per the Airsevices site:

 

Conditions of use

 

1. The AIS Publications may be displayed and viewed on screen in an unaltered form (which retains this notice) for personal, non-commercial purposes only. For the avoidance of doubt, personal use does not include use for internal business purposes.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
   
2. For the avoidance of doubt, except as permitted under the Copyright Act 1968 (Cth), no part of the AIS Publications may be:
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
   

 

 

 

 

 

reproduced, stored in a retrieval system, transmitted, redistributed, republished or commercially exploited; or

 

edited, altered, modified, adapted or developed,

 

by or on behalf of you in any way without the prior written permission of Airservices Australia.

 

[*]You are not permitted to cache the AIS Publications on a local server, other than in the course of normal internet service and in accordance with the Copyright Act 1968 (Cth).

 

[*]Airservices Australia reserves all rights that are not expressly granted in this copyright notice, permitted under the Copyright Act 1968 (Cth) or granted in a separate agreement.

 

So... stored documents are not legally accepted.

 

cheers,

 

 

[Admin]

One person said to me that your PC is a "Retrieval System" as it retrieves files from your hard disk and shows them on your monitor therefor downloading a copy of an ERSA page to your hard disk is illegal

 

PLUS, this means an individual person can only "view" it on the Air Services web site however, and this is the stupid part, a commercial person isn't even allowed to "view" it on the Air Services web site even if it is to check something internally

 

 

[kaz3g]

Kaz,You are sounding like a ship driver who doesn't trust electronic charting (NCDS). BTW if you want a good read that involves usinga sextant whilst flying have a read of Sir Francis Chichesters biography.

Phil

Hey Phil

 

Yes, I spent much of my youth in boats and did some time working at sea, too

 

But I guess I was actually being facetious because it is time that CASA joined the rest of us in the 21st century. I use a Garmin GPS and a moving map and find them to be of fantastic assistance on trips long or short.

 

The first long trip I did in my Auster was the flight from Watts Bridge to Locksley in Victoria when I purchased it. It was 7 January 2009 and the weather on departure was towering cumulus with the odd CB planted in it. I had it al the way down the west side of the great Divide and it made it a very interesting journey. I simply couldn't do my diversions on the paper charts I had with me because of the turbulence and had to rely on the GPS info.

 

I did a 3500 mile circuit around central Australia a year later and once again found the electronic help took a huge amount of the pressure off me and my copilot (Mandy, the Kelpie). I'm now very interested in the EFB that Ian is teasing us with and await further info as he brings this to fruition.

 

I might be as old as my aeroplane, but we both like to have a bit of an update now and again so we can put on a modern face

 

kaz

 

 

[Owi]

One person said to me that your PC is a "Retrieval System" as it retrieves files from your hard disk and shows them on your monitor therefor downloading a copy of an ERSA page to your hard disk is illegal

That is not quite true since in that case the files are locally stored. A retrieval system would be what AirServices already has in place for us - a means of retrieving (downloading) the files to a local storage area. What this rule is supposed to prevent is other people putting these files up for download from an alternate server.

This, I imagine, is a means of controlling the distribution rights of the files, much like in that you can only get official i-Device Apps from Apple's own servers. They are, after all, copyright of AirServices Australia.

 

PLUS, this means an individual person can only "view" it on the Air Services web site however, and this is the stupid part, a commercial person isn't even allowed to "view" it on the Air Services web site even if it is to check something internally

Also not quite. I don't know about the "commercial person's" situation but the fact is the files are available for download as .PDF. If AirServices didn't want us to download them, then they would've published them in a different, non-downloadable format.

Cheers all.

 

 

[Admin]

Owi, they can publish the files on their own web site and provide a link that opens them up for viewing, they can also provide a way to download them but that doesn't necessarily mean you are allowed to...they are very black and white when talking to them and I suppose to the letter when referring to a PC as a file retrieval system...you have the files on your hard disk but to view a file whether it is in word or a picture etc, on your screen your computer retrieves the file from the hard disk and displays it...black and white I suppose but silly nevertheless

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

As per the Airsevices site:

Conditions of use

 

1. The AIS Publications may be .....
    
    
   

 

 

So... stored documents are not legally accepted.

 

cheers,

I agree with Owi, but have expanded the explanation a bit further..

 

You have only partially quoted the "additional conditions" for AIP information. There is also "The terms of this copyright notice are in addition to the obligations for use of the AIS Publications contained in the Terms of Use, Copyright and Privacy Statement."

 

The referenced general site copyright conditions allow "...you may download, display, print and reproduce this material for your non-commercial and personal use, or for non-commercial use within your

 

organisation, provided that any reproduction is unaltered, shows the date of first publication, and that an attribution of the source is included."

 

So what does this mean in totality? I believe you can download any of the AIP PDFs for your own personal use. When displayed on the screen, you cannot alter them in any way from the original. Thus PDAs that decompose the PDF or otherwise strip text from them or transcode them for storage and viewing on the PDA cannot be used. The PDF Viewer on Palm PDAs did that on the PC before loading the resulting processed file to the PDA for viewing. Some PDFs were fine, but others suffered transcoding issues. I believe the issues at the core of this condition are:-

 

• Display of the copyright notice when entering the web site. (you are prohibited from attempting to "Leach", which means you cannot use another web site or method of access to link to individual documents that does not go through the copyright display.)
   
   
  
• Maintenance of the copyright / authorship of the documents.
   
   
  
• Maintenance of the integrity of the information in the documents, including not only text but layout integrity.
   
   
  

 

 

In Android phones, you simply store the PDF on the SDcard, thus it is intact and unprocessed in any way. The phone's PDF viewer displays the document as it was intended, without any layout change, so complies. The same may be possible with iPhones (I don't own one).

 

The AIP information is available from AS web site in two forms. One (AIP Book) is best viewed in real time and links between contents pages and the appropriate book pages. Other information is provided as PDFs which you can access through either left or right click. In other words, if you have a PDF viewer plugin in your browser, you can left click and it will open in that plugin for viewing inside the browser. Alternatively, if you don't have a PDF viewer plugin, then you will get the same functionality as right click in that you will be asked where to save the file, which can then be viewed using a PDF viewer application.

 

For anyone to suggest that you can view anything from a web site without it being downloaded to the PC is simply uninformed.

 

Neither a PC's hard disk nor a PDA / phone Flash Storage card constitute a "Retrieval System". A "Retrieval System" is one in which content is indexed so that it can be retrieved based on a search that usually includes not only metadata stored about each document, but also a full text index derived from the individual documents. This web site is a simple form of a "Retrieval System", in that you can use the Search box to find threads and posts that contain key words of interest.

 

A PC is only a Server if other PCs (or user agents) are obtaining information from them. In a home situation, if you were to download the documents to a "Shared Directory" so that other PCs, networked in the home could access the files, that would be acting as a Server. The remedy is for each PC user to download the documents from the AS site personally.

 

If you want to be able to distribute these documents to others, then you need to obtain a license from AS.

 

 

[pradeep]

On my part:

 

You can view the document on the screen - it may be necessary for the software you use to save the document temporarily onto the hard disk, but every time you wish to have a look at the document you need to click on the original link provided in the AS website, you can NOT simply doble click the stored file.

 

So if you can have a working internet connection throughout the flight it is legal, this is how I interpret the 'condition of use'. I may be wrong.

 

cheers,

 

 

[zodiac3813]

Hi there,

 

is it legal to carry current ERSA pages printed off the Airservices website, rather than buy a new ERSA every time when only visiting a few local airfields? (I always buy the full hard copy when venturing a long way from home)

 

Cheers, Jim.

 

 

[djpacro]

That's what I do - no room for an ERSA in a Pitts cockpit, Jim.

 

The current Reg 233 states:

 

(h) the latest editions of the aeronautical maps, charts and other aeronautical information and instructions, published in AIP or by a person approved in writing, that are applicable:(i) to the route to be flown; and

(ii) to any alternative route that may be flown on that flight;

 

are carried in the aircraft and are readily accessible to the flight crew.

I use the words "as applicable" to justify what I leave out.The new draft Part 91 rule changes the wording to "all of the necessary" and CASA will have an Advisory Circular to provide guidance on actually what to carry.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Hi there,is it legal to carry current ERSA pages printed off the Airservices website, rather than buy a new ERSA every time when only visiting a few local airfields? (I always buy the full hard copy when venturing a long way from home)

 

Cheers, Jim.

My belief is that what you suggest is ok. This is also what CASA reps have told me at Safety Seminars". You aren't required to carry the whole ERSA, but you must have all the information required for all destinations and possible alternates for a flight in paper form.

As long as you view and print from a PDF viewer application that does not change the document representation, as is sometimes done on SmartPhones PDAs or other small screen devices.

 

I've noticed a new term creeping into the "Features list" of some PDF viewer applications for small screen devices that refer to "Text re-Flow" or otherwise reconfiguring the presentation of the document to better suit a small screen. It is not predictable whether the document may have the same meaning if re-configured*, hence the item in AS copyright "The AIS Publications may be displayed and viewed on screen in an unaltered form...". Printing isn't usually an issue and thus isn't separately described.

 

* My old Palm PDA was quite good for viewing PDFs that were of simple construction, but it reprocessed all documents into a proprietary form on the PDA and sometimes text from tables got mixed up, diagrams were unreadable or blocks of text or lists appeared out of sequence. My HTC Desire (SmartPhone), just stores the original PDF file and displays it in the standard manner. It can be scaled (as with a PC PDF viewer), but the representation of the document does not change.

 

Thus, my old Palm PDA would be non-compliant with the "...be displayed and viewed on screen in an unaltered form..." requirement, but the HTC Desire is compliant.

 

+ This is my opinion and does not constitute legal advice.

 

 

[pradeep]

I believe we are talking about two different things here,

 

1. The legality of carrying only the necessary pages for the flight

 

2. the copyright law which prohibits reproducing the ERSA from AS website.

 

It is my belief that 1 is OK, but 2 does not allow us to carry the printed out pages from AS.

 

but I am not a lawyer though......

 

cheers

 

 

[djpacro]

I believe we are talking about two different things here...

Perhaps even three different things - the third being CASA approval of an EFB.If I am ramp checked by CASA then I expect to show compliance with CASA regulations only.

 

 

[Bob Smith]

Hi I have recently created a pdf from this web page that basically works as if you were online. http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/publications/aip.asp?pg=40&vdate=2-Jun-2011&ver=2 Also I have created a waypoint list of all the aiports listed in the ersa that can be viewed on Google Earth or a map viewer of your choice. Just wondering how much interest would there be for these documents.

 

Let me know if you are interested. No responsibilty taken for there use.

 

Regards

 

Bob

 

 

[Ultralights]

i cant believe the amount of crap over something so simple, but then again, thats the CASA way, the FAA have approved Ipads as acceptable substitute to paper copies inflight paperwork, Alaskan airlines has been the first to replace all paper in the cockpit with ipads and pdf readers. why is it so hard to do in OZ....

 

 

[Admin]

I am working on it however Qantas etc have more chance with the costs and limitations on certification of such units...big dollars including having approved technical support for maintenance