Bubbleboy Posted May 19, 2011 Share Posted May 19, 2011 Im thinking of "biting the bullet" so to speak and lacing and truing my spoked wheels for the Pietenpol. I have the rims, spokes and hubs here and I was looking at sending them to Brisbane to get done but this is going to cost in excess of $300 which could be spent on gauges! I have an article here explaining how to do it which I was going to upload here but it says the file is too big. Has anyone done this before and what tips could you give me? Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgwilson Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 This is probably no help but when I was about 12 I worked for my old man after school building bike wheels. Everything came separately in those days. We had to build the hub first installing the axle, packing it with grease and ball bearings etc. The hub was clamped vertically in the middle of an assembly bench and 4 spokes were started from the outer edges of the hub to the rim. As the rim was horizontal it was just laying on the bench. Another 4 were done at 90 degrees to the first 4. Then the wheel held together with just 8 spokes was lifted and turned to a vertical position with the hub mounted in a fork. You then turned the wheel slowly and got it reasonably true vertically. The rest of the spokes were then installed tightened and trued with a spoke key. The first few took a bit of time to get right but after a while I could knock them out pretty quickly. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Kevin, it looks like you may have really put your spoke in the wheel and put your hand up for the job, if you have then congratulations on helping a Forum Member, keep those wheels turning and please send us some progress pictures. Your Forum Stirrer........Alan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Scotty, Surely there's a bicycle shop in Tamworth that does wheel repairs. They are sure to help you. From Kevin's description, I reckon you could do it. I have the greatest confidence in you! OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbleboy Posted May 20, 2011 Author Share Posted May 20, 2011 Hi Kevin...thank you for that. The article very clearly explains how to true the wheel etc but im having trouble picturing the spoke pattern. Call me dumb...lol! They are a 40 spoke rim, 21" x 2.15. OME....I asked at the local Harley dealer and he shook his head and said he only knew of a place in Victoria some where but said it was very expensive. I found a place in Brisbane that charges $99 a rim plus I need to get it all there and he needs to send it back so probably in excess of $300 to do it that way. Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 If you get it wrong, you can just redo it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Yeah, $99 per rim sounds OK, but road freight should not be $100 to amd from. $50 at the outside. Why don't yuou go an take a look at some kid's bike, or some one's motorcycle. What you have to do is hold a wheel vertically by the axle with the rim facing you. There's a left and right hand side to the hub. With that view planted in your head, lay the rim down on your bench and install 4 spokes, spaced at 90 degrees to each other, from the left hand side of the hub to the rim and secure the spokes with the spoke nut finger tight. Now flip the assembly over. Install 4 spokes from the holes in the right hand side of the hub to the rim. Make sure these spokes go into the hole in the rim next to the hole the left hand side spoke goes through. Secure the spokes finger tight. Moving in a clockwise direction, fit spokes from the right hand side of the rim to every second hole in the rim until you have completed a circcuit of the rim. Secure the spokes finger tight. Now flip the assembly over and fit the remaining spokes from the left hand side of the hub to the rim and secure finger tight. Now mount the completed wheel assembly vertically, but so that you can rotate the rim on its axle. Starting anywhere, tighten a pair of spokes from adjacent holes in the hub. (Mark these spokes somehow so you will know which ones you started at.) Now tighten the two spokes that are 180 degress opposite the first two you tightened. Try to tighten them by the same amount - perhaps you could leave the same number of threads visible on the spoke - I'll leave you to figure that. Move around the rim, tightening each pair on one side then the opposite pair from the other side until you have tightened all spokes to the same tension 9as best you can) Then spin the wheel on its axis to see if it tracks true. If it does first off, then I'm a bloody genius and you should sing my praises. If not, you've cocked up. Once you've got the rim tracking pretty true, tack it to a bicycle shop to get a bicycle mechanic to check your work. OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted May 20, 2011 Share Posted May 20, 2011 Or you could watch these videos: OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 The easiest way is to keep a sample spoked wheel that is similar to the one you are doing, for reference. Spoking wheels is NOT easy. Some are and some aren't.. A lot depends on the design of the hub and whether the spoke flanges have holes that are slotted. Most aren't these days. There is also the need to get the angle that the spoke leaves the rim correct. The rim MUST match the hub you are using. Sit the hub flat on the ground and align a few spokes to check the angle that it makes with the rim. The rim has dimples and these are drilled to fit the nipples. Each hole has to be the right size and point in exactly the right direction or the spoke will have to have a bend. This is no good when it happens. It looks bad and tends to make the spokes break. IF you are using a typical Japanese front wheel hub off say a 175 trail bike for your purposes, it will be obvious , (by the countersink) that some spokes go one way through the hub and others ( every second one) go the other way. The way to spoke these hubs is to put ALL the spokes in the hub that can be inserted from the OUTSIDE only and align them with the wheel flat on the ground in exactly the way your sample wheel has them. Loosely fit the nipples to the end of the spokes after passing the end through the rim. Only wind the nipples on enough distance to keep them there. Then you can do the other spokes by passing each one of them from the opposite side of the hub through the flange, and when the bend has passed through the flange , insert the threaded end through the rim hole and wind the nipple on a few turns only. Do all the rest of the spokes the same way. If your spokes are the correct length, you will get the rim close to true by winding the nipples on till the spoke appears at the same height in each one. Then finally true the wheel by spinning it and checking run-out. You have to get the correct tension on all the spokes. IF you use stainless spokes you MUST use the lubricant provided with them or they will seize as you are assembling them. IF you dont have matching rims and hubs and the correct length ,spokes you need a professional who can cut and thread the spokes to suit. He can also vary the lacing pattern to adjust for various angles that the holes are drilled in the rim.( within limits) IF your plane is fairly heavy you may have to get slightly better than average hubs and spokes. Side loads should be considered as a lot of motorcycle wheels particularly the cheaper type aren't designed for side loads that are large. You have to persist with the wheels because that is the way they were on the Piet. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fly_tornado Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 I have found when trying something new but not too obscure, start your research by searching on youtube... watching someone do something as they explain it always helps with getting your head around the concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbleboy Posted May 21, 2011 Author Share Posted May 21, 2011 Thanks guys!...Im getting more and more scared to do this the more I read these comments! The hub is custom made and is 6 inches wide and takes a 1.5 inch axle. Kennie Buchanan from Buchanan Spokes in the USA sent me the rim and stainless spokes. I had to send him all the dimensions of the custom hub and he made the spokes to suit and drilled the rim. I need to ponder this some more.... Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted May 21, 2011 Share Posted May 21, 2011 You bloody woose! I have complete confidence in your ability to make these wheels. If you can't make them, then you'd best advertise a Project For Sale. You won't break anything by giving it a go. Follow what that pimply faced kid did in the videos. Perhaps you could wrap a little bit of masking tape around half of the spokes so that you can distinguish left from right. Don't forget to lubricate the threads before you assemble the spokes. Yave you got any anti-sieze? I'll try to get out to the airport today and take some photos of teh wheels on the Piet out there. OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 I get stuff from Buchanans. They would have the correct length and rim alignment spoke holes. Both your flanges are the same size so that simplifies it. My suggestion re the inner spokes being done first is because you cannot get the inners in after the others are done without bending and ruining them. (Other spokes are in the way). Also, your hubs are dished in. This means that all your spokes are the same at the bend. This is one of the simplest wheels that you will ever get to work with. Have a look at a pushbike wheel. It will be very similar. As OME says, don't forget the lubricant in the little plastic bottle that comes with the spokes .Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazza 38 Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 I have tensioned my dirt bike wheels over the years.It is a art.You will make mistakes, but not costly.Just back off all the the spokes and start again. Being on a motor Bike, it was easy to set a reference.I mean, set a indicator, clamped to one of the forks where you can see where the rim moves away or towards the indicator, hold it just off the rim 2 0r 3 mill, if the rim is more than that out of adjustment, move the indicator further away where it isnt touched by the rim.The key is too make little adjustments, to each spoke, as the rim gets tensioned via the spokes, little moments make a big difference. I taught myself as a teenager.With spoked motor bikes the spokes will loosen within the first few thousand kays. After being retensioned and the wheel settles.You wont have to adjust them much if at all.Eg- My KTM from new, i adjusted them 2 times in the first 3 000 kays or so.They have not had to be adjusted since 13000 kays later.What you have to do is the "star" tensioning at first as mentioned above.when you get close, you have too tension the spokes when the rim moves away from the indicator.Not just one spoke, but the ones around it.If yu tension them to much the rim will pull past centre toward the other direction.Then you start chasing your tail so to speak. Its Time consuming, but when you get the hang of it, its not that bad.Either that or just get a bike shop to do it. PS- The Key IMO is not to over tension a particular spoke, it upsets the other spokes beside it and the oposite spokes and pulls the rim out of alignment. Im self taught it has worked for me over the last 30 years. Could be wrong though. PS- as the other Gents have mentioned, Since the wheel has not been laced at this point, you have to do as they have mentioned lube, etc.Otherwise it will be a heart breaker.But having said that, have a crack at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 Check you normal emails, I've sent you several pictures that I took this arvo. What I suggest that you do is print this one (it's in the lot I sent) and use coloured pencils to mark the spokes. That way you will see which rim hole each successive spoke goes into. It seems to be pretty clear if you watch those two videos and do a bit of head scratching. You won't break anything, and any mistakes are easily recovered. A lot easier than making the ribs! OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbleboy Posted May 22, 2011 Author Share Posted May 22, 2011 You bloody woose! I have complete confidence in your ability to make these wheels. If you can't make them, then you'd best advertise a Project For Sale. ..OME Mark...the price is $50 000 and its yours! Seems the going price for a cheap RAA now days and its not even plastic...haha! ok...damn good pics there Mark! I really appreciate that and I can now see how the pattern is formed. Those wheels look like a 36 hole rim? Mine are 40 but I guess its the same principle? I looked at my spokes again today and the button head? on the spoke that sits against the hub has a different angle bent on each set. Im assuming this is for the inside and outside variation. Nev & Dazza...yes have the bottle of lube that came with them. I cant lace them yet as I need to get the hubs powder coated but before that, a little needs to be turned from the inside of the 4 oilite bushes. The bushes are supposed to be for a 1.5 inch axle which I have here yet they dont slide on. Only by a pooftenth though. Im hoping the powder coaters wont need those oilite bushes out to do it. Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 See! A little positive encouragement and you are on your way! OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hildy Posted May 22, 2011 Share Posted May 22, 2011 how many cross do you want the wheels? http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html if you don't have them built in 8 weeks, I'll come and give you a hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I forgot to mention take the "hop" out of the wheel before you go for the wobble. (sideways). you need many more turns to fix the up and down. Tension all spokes evenly. If you want to move the wheel over loosen on one side and tighten the same amount on the other side. Doesn't take much to produce a large change . If you only need a small correction, ( when you are nearly finished) slacken or tighten a small amount depending on the tension. 40 spokes is the more common number these days. If you get off centre loosen one side and tighten the other. Put a mark on the rim or use the valve hole as a start point. Re the number of spokes that cross, If you look at OME's picture and pick out any two spokes that more or less make a straight line across the wheel, you will see that it the example pictured, that there is one spoke entering the hub from the outside, and then there are two other spokes and then a spoke inline with the first inserted from the inside of the hub. Yours should be done with NO spokes in between the two that make a straight line. The line is tangential to the hub. This would be easy if I had a blackboard. Hope it makes sense. I personally dont like powdercoating. I just use Killrust black and let it dry in the sun for about a week. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 I just had a look at the photo again, and, based on Facthunter's comment: "pick out any two spokes that more or less make a straight line across the wheel, you will see that it the example pictured, that there is one spoke entering the hub from the outside, and then there are two other spokes and then a spoke inline with the first inserted from the inside of the hub." you will soon determine that the lacing on this wheel is crap. There is a couple of spokes that make a straight line across the assembly, but most head don't. I thought that the hub hung by the spokes from the top of the wheel, not pushed down on teh bottom of the rim. In that case, I thought that the spokes would be paired up so that you could draw a line from the top side of the rim to the bottom side along two spokes, and that the line would pass through the centreline of the axle. I'm intrigued now. Tomorrow I'm going to teh bike shop and ask the guy there. OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbleboy Posted May 23, 2011 Author Share Posted May 23, 2011 OME...I was studying the rim in your pic and some of those spokes are badly bent almost under pressure! I should go to a bike shop as well with camera in hand and take some pics. let me know if you get there before me. Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
facthunter Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 OME some speedway wheels ( front only ) are done as you suggest, but not many are done that way. Most are spoked as if they transmit torque from the hub to the rim. This requires that they are more or less TANGENTIAL to the hub where they enter and leave it. Consequently they cross other spokes. Usually 2 or 3. Nev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted May 23, 2011 Share Posted May 23, 2011 Scotty, I'm going to the bicycle shop this morning with my camera. Facthunter, Scotty did not say how many crossovers he wanted, That will greatly influence the way teh spokes are laid out. SCOTTY!!! How many crossovers do you want? OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbleboy Posted May 24, 2011 Author Share Posted May 24, 2011 OME...I got no idea! Hence why im now iffy about doing it myself as it seems there are a lot of variables. Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old man emu Posted May 24, 2011 Share Posted May 24, 2011 OK. I've emailed you the details of a bloke to see in Tamworth. When I went to the bike shop this morning, I only got a little bit of info. 1. The suppliers of the spoke and rim should have sent you a lacing pattern which says how many crossovers you need to make. Better get back onto them if you've got no other info. 2. The more crossovers, the stronger the wheel. 3. It is possible to lace a wheel as I originally described, but that would be the weakest assembly. 4. The longest spokes are used for no crossovers. The spokes get shorter as the number of crossovers increases. OME Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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