Do we concern student pilots too much with pushing & pulling controls?

[old man emu]

I was driving home from a visit the The Oaks Airport this afternoon with my mind on other things when I realised that I wasn't consciously thinking about the steering inputs I was making, nor was I being overly concerned every time the car ran across a bit of uneven road. Now, I've been driving for over forty years, and during that time was trained for pursuit driving, so I'd say that puting a car where I want it is second nature to me.

 

Then I thought about my flying, of which I have much less experience than driving. I made the realisation that no one ever told me that once the plane was doing generally what I wanted to do, leave the controls alone.

 

The planes we fly are generally designed to be stable. If they get a bit of a bump from an airpocket, they will settle back down to what they were doing beforehand without the wingnut in the left hand seat kicking at the rudder pedals and yanking the control column all over the cockpit. In fact, once trimmed to a certain attitude, the up-and-down control is the throttle.

 

Should the lesson, "Further Effect of Controls" be left for some time after the student has been shown that, as far as the plane is concerned, the pilot is a tiresome busy body?

 

OME

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

I agree OME.

 

One of the first things I was shown was.. "let go of the bar"... see, it just keeps on doing what it was doing before." When I hit my first major down-draft and madly corrected for it, we porpoised somewhat. My CFI's only comment... "that was pilot induced." It was all he needed to say. I understood completely and was able to mentally review how my reactions had exacerbated the motion.

 

You soon learn not to fight it, but just apply gentle inputs when correction is actually needed.

 

In a similar vein to your driving description, I was quite pleased with myself when I realised that I was compensating for wind drift without any conscious thought, whereas early in my training, it took conscious thought to process the steps and keep monitoring. It is actually an interesting mental adjustment when the process is committed to unconscious action and conscious thought is only applied to managing changes and monitoring. This is how, as you progress, you find that you are no longer overloaded by the tasks that need to be performed and are able to progress to the next stage of training.

 

 

[Acky]

I remember early in my training, i was instructed to let go of the stick, and trim the aircraft out, and fly with only my feet and throttle. Just as a demonstration, and becasue it's handy for when you're juggling a lap full of charts, and ersa etc later in training. We also did some leaning forward and back to change the pitch.

 

I find I do get odd/concerned looks from passengers when i let go of the stick though!!

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

I noticed that some pilots make their own turbulence through continual over correcting. For some, this is a habit formed in the learning phase, for others it is anxiety, clutching the controls too tightly, pushing on the rudders continually. This should not happen if the instructor is doing his/her job well. The student should become relaxed and begin to respond gently and automatically. When I did my training it was still expected of instructors to yell at, belittle and abuse students. After all, this was how they were taught. It had some throw back to military training regimes I was told. Today there's a better attitude to teaching, somewhat consumer driven - if students give up or walk out the door to another school it's bad for business. The student of today understands they are hiring an instructor and school to achieve a result within a desired budget and timeframe. If there's little progress the student can go elsewhere.

 

A grade 3 instructor I knew (trained under the old way) got his first job with a very experienced pilot who had spent many years mustering. The Gr 3 flew (creating his own turbulence) remarked how bumpy it was. The old chap took over and with a light touch, explained that he could see the bumps and was correcting for them. It was years later that the instructor found out he couldn't see them, he was just not overcorrecting. He learnt to do it too.

 

An ultralight instructor at my club wasn't very good at communicating. He was teaching a student to land, they had several bumpy jobs in between demonstrations by himself, when they had a dream landing. He turned to the student and remarked what a magnificent landing you did, only for the student to say, but I thought you were doing the landing. The aircraft actually did the landing, better than either of them. Once they understood, they stopped trying to yank it all over the shop. That aside, one long qualifed ultralight pilot managed to show me one take off followed by 5 landings on two runways, having chosen a cross wind, bounced, went bush, ballooned, crossed to the other runway and did a tango but finally put it down having fought it all the way. It had become habit to fly like that.

 

Sue

 

 

[farri]

In my opinion, the amount of input required,at any given time,depends on the type of aircraft and the situation being experienced!

 

Not all Ultralights have triming devices,the pilot is the trim and good coordination of stick and rudder is required, however, over correction can make the situation far worse!

 

A student was at the controlls and we were bouncing all over the place! I took over and got him to follow me on the stick and stabalised the AC.

 

After a couple of minutes he said," How can you see where the turbulance is"... I thought he was joking...He was serious.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Relfy]

I recall very early on in my training I was gripping the stick so tightly that i nearly popped the mic botton off the top. My instructor made me hold the stick with my thumb and index finger only, suddenly things smoothed out. I also began 'stirring the porridge' so to speak when i first got stuck into circuits and was told to adopt the two finger grip, which again 'smoothened' (love that word) out.

 

I also recall after completing a few rough circuits, with landings all over the shop, my CFI showing me the importance of trim and being smooth. I think he touched the stick three times from downwind to flare, using only throttle and trim to set the a/c up so it rode down the glidescope pretty much by itself.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Judgement about knowing when to correct and when not to is a skill, maybe thats what you are teaching?

 

 

[facthunter]

Appropriate input for the situation. Some aircraft never trim out well, and you do have to "fly" them. OVERCONTROLLING is not flying, but neither is NOT controlling it. You have to be ready for things that change, and sometimes radically, and quickly. Some planes are heavy and unresponsive, ( especially when slow).

 

Until I took up instructing,, I had got to the stage of more or less pressuring the plane around. Flying a Chipmunk which has about the nicest controls of anything comparable, and having an instructor who emphasised being gentle with the plane, produced that situation.

 

Why mention the instructing?. Well I happen to be the kind of instructor who doesn't do a lot of the flying.( The student is paying for it) I also let people go to where things have got fairly wrong before I take over. ( the instructor's eternal dilemma).

 

Also , for a while I couldn't believe that people would put aeroplanes into the situations that some did, so, some very positive controlling is often needed. You may need FULL control deflection as quickly as you can apply it,( and sometimes still want more). This is not normal (of course), but happens.

 

Also IF there is a turbulence encounter on final, or anytime you are low and slow, you need positive control inputs , ( including power). .You cannot rely on the aircraft's natural stability in those situations. Like in a stall recovery with power. ( that's another story) The ATTITUDE (pitch) should be maintained with whatever control input is necessary. Assymetric flying in non-centreline multi's requires positive and rapid control inputs and often FULL rudder till the speed increases, and then you take a bit off.

 

I've met a few "bulldozer driver" type pilots who overcontrol and are as rough as guts. As you say, They make their own turbulence. Dont think they will ever change. They probably do all things roughly.

 

On the other side of it GOOD pilots make the job look easy.They fly smoothly and positively. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Behind every bulldozer driver is a system that creates and maintains those skills. Don't those pilots just go from one "too hard basket" to the next?

 

 

[farri]

As we know, we fly in a dynamic enviroment! Just taking the landing as an example! What are the chances of encountering the exact same conditions and situation each and every time and therefore applying the exact same technique each and every time?............... My gues is next to none!

 

Though it can be taught, judgement and skill is unique to the individual!

 

Developing judgement and skill, knowing when to correct and not to, can only be developed by the individual! This is best done by continuous practise!!!

 

Frank

 

 

[Guest SAJabiruflyer]

I found during my Ab Initio Training that I was gripping the stick so tight you could see my knuckles, and over-correcting every little bump. Coupled with the fear that every bit of turbulence would have the a/c out of control, it did not make for a smooth ride or a happy Instructor. With the excellent input of my instructors, I learnt to relax my grip, to trim correctly (oh boy, once I got it in my head that Trim was important in the a/c i was flying, it made finals so much smoother) and to not stress so much over every bump and jolt. I got told to relax so many times, and it finally sunk in so I stopped making my own turbulence.

 

 

[old man emu]

WOW! I didn't think that my idle thoughts would prove to be so universally accepted.

 

I would suggest that all instructors should take these comments to heart and design their TIFs to instill in the novice one thing, and one thing only: That if the aircraft is placed in the correct attitude, at teh correct power setting and with a little bit of trim wound in, it will take the pilot on an effortless magic carpet ride without any further action by the pilot.

 

Hmmmm. Something is stirring in teh back of my mind. It's one of those mnenomics I was supposed to learn as a student: A,P,T = Attitude, Power, Trim.

 

Perhaps also, we should not tell students, "To go up, pull back on the control column and to go down, push forward." There is one school of instructing that teaches, 'To go up, push the throttle forward, and to go down, pull it back."

 

OME

 

 

[Guest SAJabiruflyer]

Well done OME. Your idle thoughts are obviously spot on!. I was taught that when you pull back on the stick, the houses get smaller. When you push forward, the houses get bigger. And if you keep the blue stuff UP THERE and green stuff DOWN there, and fly somewhere in between... it will be fine. Well that was the dumbed down version to start me off!

 

 

[Guest SAJabiruflyer]

:peepwall:

 

 

[poteroo]

There's a perception 'out there', that you need to push & pull ......lots...... in order to achive a response. Prospective 'students' are usually quite underwhelmed on a TIF, when shown that you don't really need the John Wayne heroics on the controls to achieve your goals. Power x attitude is a great plank to learn from.

 

In a similar vein - most of my tailwheel endorsement students have heard that you need lots of rudder. Which way ?......hell, lets just go full L to full R every 2 secs and we're bound to strike a happy medium........ which must be right !

 

Unfortunately for the industry - the 'seat-of-the-pants' feel for balance has been too long associated with being a cowboy! It's consequence is.... that current day pilots tend to fly with primary concern for procedures, and lastly toward skills.

 

Instructors must work toward correcting these potentially dangerous attitudes.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

..you need lots of rudder. Which way ?......hell, lets just go full L to full R every 2 secs and we're bound to strike a happy medium........ which must be right !..

I thought that was skulling in a boat and an oar is more effective than just a rudder ;-)

 

 

[old man emu]

I was giving the A,P,T thing a bit of thought over my Cornflakes this morning.

 

Which is the correct sequence: AAPT -attitude, airspeed, power, trim

 

OR

 

APAT - attitude, power, airspeed, trim?

 

OME

 

 

[fly_tornado]

what about AAAAA angle attitude airspeed altitude airwaves on landing?

 

 

[Guest Jake.f]

.

 

 

[rgmwa]

Which is the correct sequence: AAPT -attitude, airspeed, power, trimOR APAT - attitude, power, airspeed, trim?

OME

I was taught APT at top of climb and PAT at bottom of descent. That's for the average Cessna, but other aircraft may be different.

rgmwa

 

 

[Chris Tarran]

Me too although my instructor used LAPT (Look, Attitude, Power, Trim) at TOC and LPAT at BOD.

 

On the original thread topic I have also noticed that as my hours go up (along with confidence and, I hope, skill) I fly the AC less and guide it more if that makes sense. On my recent nav once I'd trimmed out for cruise and set my track I was able to fly the AC largely hands off with just small rudder inputs and attention to throttle setting to fine tune.

 

Cheers

 

Chris

 

 

[Guest SAJabiruflyer]

Hey Jake.f, The first thing my instructor taught me was that I best not wait for him to ask for coffee, it needs to be ready for him before we do our briefing.

 

 

[Powerin]

I was taught that when you pull back on the stick, the houses get smaller. When you push forward, the houses get bigger.

...and if you keep pulling back the houses get bigger really fast! Hold it back and the houses might go in nice circles too. :big_grin:

 

 

[foxy]

The sequence for everything is Power Attitude Trim.....the only time it ever changes is at the top of the climb, where it becomes Attitude Power Trim....because we all know what happens if you pull the power with a high angle of attack!! ;)

 

As for the use of the controls....when I was a student, I learnt in the gazelle. I know...an easy thing to fly and doesnt take much to do it. But when it came to trimming the thing, I never liked to use it. I always thought that I was in this game to fly an aeroplane, Im gunna fly it, not let some lever do the work.

 

And I flew most of the time, slightly trimmed, but always had my hands on the controls, with pressure.

 

Then came time for the Jab and my instructor rating..... boy oh boy did I learn that that trim was the best thing since sliced bread!! I have seen the best example of why you should use that trim. Surprisingly I have had a few students with the same initial mindset as me, in regard to trimming...its either not worth it for such small pressure, or, it's just so busy (like circuit intro's etc) that they just plain forget. Needless to say that when the benefits are pointed out to them for trimming....that is..that they can have a look around at whats going on and not 'chase' the attitude all the time...they find it far easier to take it all in. TRIM TRIM TRIM

 

 

[Hildy]

the gazelle and some jabs have such a useless trim setting though.