If engine failure - land or water

[Guest Stkin0]

If you lost all power would you ditch (crash landing to water) I ask you this as we fly out to the ocean to do our training and I thought it may overturn very easy....has any one ever had to ditch in the Gazelle or know a story? Not that I am worried but a good pilot should always be aware of the situation

 

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STEVEN_K

 

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[Admin]

There has been much debate over this issue for many years.

 

The general consensus is to bring it in as slow as possible, tail low, then at the last possible moment pull back so as to drag the tail into the water and slow you down hoping like hell that the aircraft doesn't flip over when it hits the water. Either way it won't be pretty. In a high wing you are under water if you land upright and you are probably under water if you flip over. Either way, have your life jackets handy and unlatch your doors prior to impact. There has been talk previously on dropping a wing in and spinning (yawing) the aircraft around, but I'm not a subscriber to this line of thinking.

 

Either way I don't like your chances of survival in deep water. A Gazelle and Jabiru's for example are extremely hard for some people to get in and out of on the ground, let alone under water and upside down.

 

I recently saw a pilot at an airfield in his imported Czech republic manufactured machine. He was so fat (140+ kgs I estimate) that he radioed the club and asked for someone to come and refuel him whilst he waited in the aircraft (against regulations I might add). One could argue that he wasn't ambulatory so it's ok... but it would be hard to argue that the pilot in command wasn't ambulatory.

 

As for flying over the ocean, you'd need to make sure that you're able to glide to land during your traning exercises. I personally would favour landing in shallow water near the edge if the sand isn't appropriate or I would prefer a beach landing and subsequent rollover. One advantage in shallow water is that fire may not consume the aircraft, but the salt will, yet on the sand you may get more damage, but you have more chance of recovering the aircraft... catch 22 I'm afraid.

 

I have personally landed a Gazelle with no engine on several occasions; not a big drama. They are capable of a nice side-slip when required coupled with a nice and slow approach, I could pretty much land on a particular spot every time... not in the water though!

 

 

 

 

[Guest micgrace]

Hi,

 

If you can get out of a Gazelle in a hurry, good luck, I'd be drowned before I could get out. I notice you can keep it gliding fo quite a distance, could help to get to a "better spot" Might be somewhat difficult to put in a postage stamp though.

 

Micgrace :)

 

 

[pylon500]

Speaking from experience, I can say that, should you have the misfortune to have to ditch, you are more likely to survive in a high wing aircraft because most planes will overturn on impact.Once the Gazzelle had gone on it's back, you would most likely have nearly two minutes of floating on the wing before it sank, and in an emergency you would be suprised how quickly you can get out of a small openning!

 

Arthur.

 

 

[Guest micgrace]

Hi Arthur,

 

In an emergency you'd find how quickly you could exit. But normally exitingmy head is higher than the opening, meaning I would have to get out feet first and I have some fun getting the right leg out normally and free from the stick (around the front). I would imagine you could be pinned by the stick if events conspired against you.

 

The fuel selector, trim control would prevent moving leg to right (couldn't they have put it somewhere else?)

 

Of course it would be a very good idea to latch the door(s) before going in. (which is recommended in the flight manual, if time permits)

 

Anyway, best not to ever find out for real.

 

Micgrace :)

 

 

[pylon500]

You're forgetting that the aircraft would be upsidedown, you need to worry more about what you could tangled in, in the roof like headset leads an the like .Just remember to take a second and think before undoing your seat belt!

 

Arthur,

 

 

[Guest micgrace]

Hi Arthur

 

I recall somewhere that a seatbelt had to withstand an applied static load and still unbuckle to be certified. Anyhow the Gazelle I sometimes fly has quick release, so that most likely would be the least of the problems, possibly.

 

Micgrace :)

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

I think that is exactly what Arthur is talking about - it is perhaps too fast and easy to get out of the belts!

 

If you do not stop and think for a second (when inverted) and put an arm up to arrest the fall then you land on your head and break your neck - which would be bloody inconvienient if not fatal (which it it usually is!)

 

On the subject of escape from confined spaces - Arthur is again right. It is surprising what people find themselves able to do when suitably motivated.

 

Way back a training squadron were operating Avro Tutors. The instructor sat in the front and the upper wing was very low making entry and exit difficult at the best of times.

 

One of the instructors rejoiced in the name of Tubby and he found it impossible to get in and out while wearing a parachute - so had to throw it in first and put it on once seated.

 

One morning his Tutor's engine caught fire on starting and the whole thing burns very well with all the fabric and dope etc. Tubby was straight out of there and running - still wearing his parachute.

 

The flight later tried an exercise. Tubby again got in and donned the chute and for an hour tried to get out of the cockpit - and could not find a way to do so!

 

As Arthur says what you should be more worried about is entanglement rather than just escape. Having a quiet think about escape routes and what you would do is sound airmanship performed when you have time to consider - rather than when it is all happening and you may also be shocked and/or injured.

 

Tony

 

 

[Guest micgrace]

Hi Tony,

 

I'd agree with you on that, the threat of entanglement would be the greatest hazard. Although you would have to careful releasing the seat belt if inverted, but, somehow I think that releasing the seatbelt would be the least of the problems. Entaglement in it or other items might be quite a problem. Plus disorientation, possibly knocked unconscious or injured might make it unsurvivable

 

Not having gone through this sort of incidentI can only really speculate on what might be. Only someone who actually went through it and survived would really know for sure.

 

There was a documentary I seen once where a guy was tangled up on the u/c of a Cessna 172 when skydiving. The pilot landed on grass and the guy survived. The pilot deliberately stalled the aircraft a few feet just off the ground so to give the lowest possible landing speed.

 

Try as they might, the investigators could not duplicate this guys survival. They tried every possible technique to get the guy (a real person volunteered to try) free. Neg g to try and 'flip' the guy free. Side to side skids (not side slips)Letting go of controls to try and cut him free (putting a foot against the control column)Also practiced landing the plane as in the original incident (without the person, and a dummy substituted), no-one could duplicate it.

 

Still, as an exercise, trying to understand what could possibly happen means the chance of a sucessful outcome is probably greatly increased in such

 

a circumstance.

 

Something to think about.

 

Micgrace :)

 

 

[Student Pilot]

URGENT message for the guest post, if you know who owns the Gazelle in the picture tell him not to fly it anymore until he gets the engine checked

 

out!

 

Every picture posted has the Gazelle pouring smoke out, maybe he's overboosted the consosinator?

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

Hello,

 

A subject a little close to my heart in the last few weeks. My partner was in an amphibouse float plane when the pilot decided to land on a lake with the wheels down. Result one secound hand float plane and three very wet people! luckly no more than a few scratches and bruises. She said that it all happened extremly quickly and she doesn't even remeber taking her seat belt off or how they all got out the first thing she is sure about was standing on the wing trying to climb onto the inverted floats to get out of the water and away from the crocs! It turned out they didn't even go out a door all three went out the pax side window (cessna flip out window) the cabin filled up with about 30 seconds with the windscreen smashed it sank in about 30 mins and that with big floats trying to keep up afloat.

 

So yes have an escape plan and have a back up if you can't get out your planed exit (maybe a crash axe or kicking out a window) if you know its going to happen get rid of your headset and anything else thats going to get into the way throw it in the back or even better out the window and most of all make sure your seat belt is real tight it may look softer than land but it not!

 

Hopfully no one else has to ditch but if you do it long enough there is always a chance.

 

Adam.

 

 

[Student Pilot]

At that extreme climb angle (3.5 degrees) for a Gazelle, that smoke must be coming from a JATO bottle. Must be close to gross with 2 folks, 15 litres of fuel and 15 litres of vegetable oil that's injected into the exhaust?

 

 

[pylon500]

C'Mon Glen, you're not getting all cynical on us are you? I've been flying in a Gazelle with half fuel and a couple of 'average' blokes on board, and I thought 300 fpm was doing all right! I'ts not like it was 40C outside, I thought it was only about 37C!! Still there's some good thermols around everly.

 

Arthur.

 

 

[Guest micgrace]

Hi Arthur, I'd thought I'd weigh in with my 2 cents worth.

 

Having flown a Gazelle a fair bit, surely you can do better than 300fpm. at 55 climbout, two of us average about 500fpm. (at 30C, 40')Apart from one notorious example that I flew when first released which nearly put me off the breed for ever.

 

Must say, very good aircraft for beginners. Can do almost anything within reason. I notice that the rubber shear blocks in the suspension deterioate fairly quickly, and I'm somewhat dubious about the aerilon attachment method i.e. for long life.

 

As for stall, well, what can you say, full stick back to get anything that resembles what one should "feel" like.

 

Unfortunately, the rather benign characteristics might lead people into trouble on other types.

 

Micgrace :)

 

 

[Guest carlsnilsson]

G'day:

 

The subject of ditching Skyfoxes is often on my mind, as I periodically fly my old (taildragger) Fox back and forth across Bass Strait. I believe there are two primary requirements for survival: firstly, not overturning when you hit and secondly, having the aircraft float - at least for a substantial period. I carry an inflatable dinghy, which I made myself for $100, but it would be useful to have a period of some minutes at least to get myself and it out and the dinghy inflated. The dinghy is attached by a good length of nylon rope to the aircraft. It can remain so, if the aircraft floats. That's not so hard to arrange. There are many possibilities for providing floatation - even sealing off the ends of the aluminium wing spars adds more than another 20kg floatation. It does not even matter if the aircraft eventually sinks a few metres under - may save it from breaking up in seas - so long as it doesn't go to the bottom. For that eventuality in Bass Strait, you need too long a line to conveniently carry in the cockpit, if your dinghy is to remain attached. It's not a difficult matter, but seems continually neglected by manufacturers. Aircraft should float for 24 hours! By remaining attached, rescuers know where you are. Some of you may recall the tragic case of a few years back of the three fishermen who died because they drifted from western Bass Strait to the east side and nobody looked in time. The fist issue - not overturning when you ditch - can also be addressed. I made a riveted aluminium sheet drogue which is about 16 cm diameter at the mouth. At 45 knots, the drag would be about 500 kg. That's in the cockpit but tied to the tail on a length of 6 mm Spectra rope (breaking strain about 1500 kg). For Narromine, the rope was simply gaffer-taped to the underside of the fusl*ge with a couple of metres spare in the cockpit. In due course, I'll cement a strip of fabric in place to form a sleeve which can hold the rope in place in the normal course of flying. The idea is that, just prior to ditching, I would throw the drogue out which would then catch the water before the wheels hit. The rope will tear out of the tape/sleeve and pull from the tail. Should give me an almighty jerk back and down. If it stalls me into the sea, that's fine. Now, these things are untested and I hope they remain so, although I shall try the drogue from a friend's speedboat when time allows. I have tested my dinghy by jumpimg out of a canoe with it and going through the inflation process. I won't take paddles next time - they take up too much room in the cockpit and I don't intend to go anywhere. I also wear a wetsuit (long johns) under a pair of light polyester/cotton overalls. Too late to get into one if you do have to ditch. The overalls stop me looking like too much of a charlie when I arrive safely at Moorabbin. I have tried to address these issues.

 

Carl

 

 

[pylon500]

I hope this remains the case as I feel there could be some misconceptions here.The best floatation device on most aircraft is the wing, if I was ditching a high wing aircraft it would me nice to be able to step out onto the wing and arrange dinghies, supplies and epirbs before the plane sank.If the aircraft remains upright, you will have to exit underwater and surface, then decide if you want to go under again to grab what you can.Knowing the way the SkyFox windscreen is fitted, it will most likely implode on impact, flooding the cabin in about 5 seconds if upright.As for having a rope attached to the plane, remember, once it fills with water, it becomes a 300kg sinker.If you want a sea anchor, use a sea anchor!Sorry about the rant,

 

Arthur.

 

 

[Guest carlsnilsson]

Arthur:

 

thanks for posting again. With the seas I saw below me in Bass Strait, I don't think there would be much "stepping out on the wing". More like a scramble any which way to get out of the cockpit, with or without a windscreen. However, I take issue on the idea that the Fox necessarily becomes a 300 Kg sea anchor. There's quite a lot of air trapped here and there that will take quite a time to fill. Also, there's a certain amount of real displacement anyway to subtract, as in fuel tanks. Wings can contain sealed flotation in some form or another, as can the fuselage. It is always feasible to attach an inflatable float to the aircraft, apart from the dinghy. A sphere, as in an inflatable ball, about 0.8 meters in diameter, will support a dead weight of 280 kg or thereabouts. I remain attached to the idea of not having the aircraft sink. My wetsuit jacket and other useful stuff will probably still be in it.

 

Carl