Report an RA-Aus pilot

[djpacro]

There are some people you can't save, but by standing up to say "this is not acceptable" or "this could be improved" you may save someone else a good deal of heart ache. Unfortunately our society tends to applaud risk takers and rouges. Then others less skilled or lucky try to emulate them. A very good book, if you can still find it, is Darker Shades of Blue - The Rogue Pilot by Tony Kern published by McGraw-Hill 1999. He investigates the reasons why these undisciplined pilots put their own egos above all else and become a danger to us - and how to deal with them. He covers a wide number of aviation accidents - it is a good read.

Indeed, everyone should read it. I had an opportunity to attend one of Tony's seminars when he was here last - just marvellous - if ever you get a chance to hear Tony then do it.This is a good general discussion as it is not an easy decision for an individual to make.

 

If it had been me then I would not know about any RAA procedure in their Ops Manual or magazine as I am not a member so if I decided to report it then it would be to ATSB.

 

Sometimes I think that my sport of aerobatics seems to attract a greater proportion of cowboys than most other aviation activities. Some people have been counselled by their peers. I’ve told some people personally where I think they could improve their attitude to safety - whether it was a SLOJ or their normal way of doing things. More often than not I know that if I say something that it will be counterproductive so I say nothing to the individual. If it was a SLOJ then they have probably realised themselves anyway; if not then they will justify their action on the basis that they have have done it many times and there is no problem.

 

Every time one of my friends or acquaintances dies in an aircraft accident I wonder if I or anyone could have done or said anything to have prevented it. One of my friends had counselled a fellow pilot on several occasions - he was severely criticised by the coroner when it came to that time - if he had reported that person then perhaps he and his young passenger would still be alive.

 

I haven’t made very many reports to the ATSB - however two in recent years, perhaps I am getting more grumpy. One was about an individual who I thought was endangering others by the activity I observed - specifically, I considered that he had endangered myself and my student. I’m not sure how my student would have handled it if he had been solo. CASA spoke to me and said that it would be followed up but I don’t know the outcome. The other report was about an AirProx which featured in considerations of the new Class D procedures - the other pilot and I discussed it and were of the same view.

 

I have sometimes contacted the CFI of the school to discuss a safety issue - usually the CFI responds reasonably and will (apparently) deal with the issue internally.

 

Sitting with a friend’s wife late one afternoon waiting for my friend to arrive in his aeroplane - he was overdue. One more sip of my drink, I said, and I would call CENSAR and get the search initiated. He turned up but still on my list of people who won’t one day. I don’t know what more I can say or do to change what I think is the inevitable outcome

 

 

[farri]

Apologies if I misconstrued the posts, sometimes things come out in text differently to how they were intended. Darky

 

No apology need at all!!!.......... I believe that anyone who truely believes they have done the right thing,has done the right thing!!!

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

 

 

[Yenn]

Be careful about what you say and what reporting you do. Several years ago there was a pilot in my area who often pushed his luck, and I had a few words with him on several occasions, he admitted his stupidity, but still lapsed at times. Someone else reported him for an incident which I didn't see and this led to me being the receiver of a lot of abuse for reporting him. My explanation that I didn't report him wasn't believed and the abuse became so bad that I wrote to CASA and RAAus and got letters saying it was not me that did the reporting. If you don't have a thick hide maybe it is best to keep quiet. But then you may have to live with your conscience.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Back in the nineties i was most unfortunate to come across a pilot that was a real worry. After i saw him do a couple of illegal and downright dangerous acts i went and I had a talk with the then CAA about it. (Several had earlier tried to talk to this pilot with no joy) They did listen to my complaint, politely, but took no action. I was pretty peeved off about the investigators attitude and was really annoyed when the pilot in question took 9 people out before the years end. I did hear from the investigator shortly after the accident, not to ask about the last time we talked but he wanted to know where i was the day of the accident. Needless to say Ozzie said a few words to him that was on top of the fact i had been living in another state.

 

Sometimes doing the right thing could backfire no matter how good your intentions. If it can be sorted out "in camera" :), that would be a better and possibly better received solution first. There is an anonymous reporting system but you will have to have some pretty good ways of backing up your complaint. As a lawyer you should be aware of how aviation law works. I think from memory that if the victim does not respond to or challenges CASA's "Show Cause" and forces CASA to go to court, that the submitter of the complaint can end up on the stand trying to prove the complaint. And if the victim wins....

 

If the person is supposed to be a 'professional' he should respond as such but there are those that have a destiny. If the person has any industry clout, and it is a small industry. Do your homework Darky, then start with the person involved and work up till you get the response you are seeking.

 

ozzie

 

 

[foxy]

darks.....if you, as a pilot, believed that someone was being unsafe in any way, then you are quite right to report him/her. there are many factors that can turn sour from something as simple as a 'legible and informative' radio call. you have stated that you werent in the position to liaise with the pilot concerned and therefor have taken at least some step in ensuring that even a small or large, (whichever the case may be) impediment, does not lead in future to be a major incident/accident. take heart in the fact that you may have saved someones life, or the livese of many, by letting someone in charge know of the problem so that it can be investigated, to whatever point....

 

liz

 

 

[poteroo]

'Opinion' is a very relative thing. It's a huge call to criticise another pilot over 'airmanship', which we oldies know to be a very nebulous subject. The onus is upon the person initiating the complaint - whoever it's directed to - to double check your facts! If, after you've done this, you have established a clearly dangerous, and verifiable, breach of the Regs - then report it. If it's rather grey - don't go there. Sometimes, things are not what they seem at first sight. an example might be useful here...............

 

Many, many moons ago, I operated a fully compliant Reg 141 low level training area close to Perth. One w/e, we had a small, private 'fly-in' of professional pilot friends. One of them brought along a distant friend who had just begun his PPL training. We had a mixture of aircraft, all enjoying some exuberant manoeuvring. Next day I heard from Perth CASA, saying that they'd had a report of unauthorised, highly dangerous, and illegal low flying being conducted over my property. The strange thing was that it had been made anonymously to CASA in Darwin ! Now, that's really sneaky. As well, had the complainant bothered to ask, they'd have been told what the legalities were. After hearing the facts - CASA wisely decided that perhaps they should take no further 'action' in the matter. We all have a fair idea of who this person was. It's a very small industry - people don't forget these things.

 

As I said above - double check your facts - opinion isn't an option !

 

happy days,

 

 

[turboplanner]

Understand what you're saying Poteroo, but she is a qualified lawyer.

 

Sometimes it works the other way too.

 

After seeing a Cessna 172 getting into a climb that looked too steep for a climb out from forced landing practice, I was dumfounded to see the guy pull a LOOP.

 

He wasn't in the aerobatic area, he pulled out low, from memory around 1000 feet and worst of all the 172 isn't authorised for aerobatics, so there was a good chance something had been strained, and a later pilot could have a catastrophic break up in flight.

 

Thinking I should identify the aircraft and pilot, so at least it could be checked and he could be dealt with, I ran inside and phoned Moorabbin, getting one of the Tower controllers.

 

He couldn't have cared less and said there were "a lot of aircraft out there" and that he had no way of identifying the aircraft.

 

I told him there was only one aircraft in that area and it was a 172 and the 172 would be calling at the Carrum entry point in two or three minutes and it would be the only one calling there etc, but he just wasn't interested, it was someone else's job, submit a report to ATSB etc.....and the guy got away, and someone with a family is probably going to hire that aircraft this morning.

 

 

[Spin]

Understand what you're saying Poteroo, but she is a qualified lawyer.Sometimes it works the other way too..

I'll say upfront that I don't know DS, other than through this forum, however your comment needs some context Turboplanner. I too was once a newly qualified lawyer and can relate to an overdeveloped sense of respect:beg: for the letter of the law:contract:, something that is almost a defining characteristic of the species. A sharp lesson, often at the hands of a grizzled and worldly wise police person is often required to bring some perspective to the view.

 

Now whilst this isn't a debate about DS and her attributes, I don't think we can simply accept her definition of "poor airmanship" "unprofessional communication", therefore "unsafe" at face value because of her professional qualification. Personally, my toes curl at the recollection of some of my pronouncements at a similar stage of life. I'm sorry but from what we have learnt so far, this one just doesn't fly.

 

Back to the example of the looping C172 - as with others here, that is a fairly extreme example and a far cry from what I understand the complaint to be about. I too hire aircraft at the moment and would hope that anyone who overstresses one that I may hire, will be reported.

 

 

[DarkSarcasm]

This has nothing to do with my qualification as a lawyer. It has everything to do with my qualification as a licenced pilot.

 

I am interested to see how far this thread had grown, when I started it I did not imagine it would spark such discussion. I have purposely not given the details of the event and will not do so, all I ask is please do not cast aspersions on my character and assume that I am a slave to the law, a jumped up PPL, full of my own importance or just trying to make trouble for a poor innocent RA driver. I am just trying to do what I feel is right and will accept the consequences if I did not do the right thing.

 

 

[Admin]

You always spark great conversations here Darky...and the huge community that is here love to participate simply because of the common interest that you have...we all have different views, some may be right, some may be wrong but eventually we seem to always come through it at the end where we all become wiser by sharing information...for what it is worth Darky, in my opinion, the subject itself that you have raised is worth gold to many others and THAT is what this site is about...so a big thanks from me

 

 

[winsor68]

I think Darky that posting this sort of thing publicly is not very wise... be cautious.

 

Now... if it was privately reported (and you don't need to be a lawyer to work out how to do that for yourself)... and acted upon, the subsequent finding would be relevant here... but that is another story...

 

I smell a rat.

 

 

[farri]

Let`s all just keep in mind that right and wrong is relitave to the objective,and that the objective changes from time to time!!!

 

Frank.

 

 

[coljones]

None of us go out to fly with the rules firmly in our pockets or minds. There are no air police out there except us and while the CFIs and FI have a lot of moral responsibility sometimes you have to, personally, take an issue in to adjudication. In our case this is to Mick Poole.

 

Just because some hoary old pilot with 50 years experience keeps getting away with it doesn't make it right.

 

DS, you have my support

 

 

[winsor68]

Of course Darky you have my support too... after all we are SELF regulating here.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

I think Darky has done the right thing (on this forum) by raising the issue of "How do you report something you think is dangerous" and resisting repeated requests to disclose all.

 

Pilots in the future will search for this thread after they have seen something that disturbs them, looking for what to do next. That's the advice I would like to see here. After the issue is reported it is up to the authorities to decide if it is an issue worth pursuing. Even if they don't pursue the individual it does add to the body of knowledge that indicates trends and may engender a funded education program, changes in regulations, increased training etc.

 

It also encourages pilots to comment if they see something dangerous. It is important, especially to new pilots, that we comment on the safety of the action rather than lauding the daring-do. In plain English - if you saw a take-off followed by low level loop that nearly bought the farm - don't say "Wow, Great, Fantastic" etc, say "How dangerous is that .... " and explain why it was wrong, lest someone else try to emulate the stunt.

 

Sue

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Well said Vizsla.

 

Seeing as darky raised concerns with regards to airmanship, here is the definition of airmanship (wikipedia)

 

• A sound acquaintance with the principles of flight,
   
   
  
• The ability to operate an airplane with competence and precision both on the ground and in the air, and
   
   
  
• The exercise of sound judgment that results in optimal operational safety and efficiency.
   
   
  

 

 

"Operational SAFETY". Casa are the civil aviation SAFETY authority.

 

The ATSB is the Australian transportation SAFETY bureau.

 

While these two bodies are the official channels available for recourse, Safety is everyone's responsibility, this is the perfect place to discuss these matters, if poor airmanship is frowned upon during discussions in an open forum, it enhances the safety 'culture' of our organization.

 

onya darks..

 

 

[eightyknots]

Darky,

 

Could you give us a v-e-r-y g-e-n-e-r-a-l outline of what you thought was a lack of/lapse in airmanship in the incident you have reported?

 

Rather than keeping it purely hypothetical and shrouded in mystery, potentially 6,700 users could learn something useful if only there were some more details given about the incident. Of course this would have to be written in a manner that does not in any way identify any individual pilot.

 

(Moderator -

 

Original thread relates to "Is there anywhere I can report an RA-Aus pilot for bad airmanship?)

 

 

[Bandit12]

And that David, is an excellent example of how to deal with a situation that you do have some level of control over, that you know exactly who the pilot is and can approach them in person.....it doesn't sound like Darky's situation was like that, but you make an excellent point of how to do something if you can. I'm all for dealing with a person directly if I can first, but if there is reason to escalate, then that should happen. Only the person/s involved can really make that call.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Like most things in life I suspect a black or white label wont be appropriate and it'll be a darky shade of grey!!

 

Report it, and let those who deal with such things do their thing. The real question is "what more could I have done" if the answer is nothing then move on with a clear conscience. If there was more then did reporting it become a substitute for actions yourself if that was the case then some naval gazing might be required.

 

Andy

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

I don't think the nitty gritty should be discussed here. It will only open a can of worms for people to apply their various opinions, sensibilities, my CFI said, folk lore, ethics, iritation levels, and other yardsticks. In this instance - the fine details should be left with the observer, perpetrator, the authorities (if reported) and any other person who has control eg CFI / employer.

 

Start a new thread on Good/Bad Airmanship and discuss what is is/not acceptable on there. This will do more for safety than dredging through this issue now, especially as the reporter is now identified. Sue

 

 

[storchy neil]

Hi all,Is there anywhere I can report an RA-Aus pilot for bad airmanship? I had a look at the RA-Aus website and can't find anything, is there anywhere online to do it? Or should I email someone at RA-Aus?

 

Cheers

:wave:hi dark i am 100% with you where in the hell do you report idiots to in your opion:scratching head:

 

my struggle to get a l4 lame out of the industry has fallen on deaf ears in my opion

 

this is why i am going to court at my expence

 

the cost to some would be to great unless you have $ 50 000 to carry you for get about:angry:

 

if the idiots kill or mame some one aparantly by some off the responces on this subject is being condoned my opion:scratching head:

 

stupid me to think any one realy cares my opion:scratching head: neil

 

 

[turboplanner]

I care about it Storchy

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Last year a drifter pilot was "performing phenomenal skills of piloting prowess" at low level at a fly- in. Seen by hundreds it went unreported, two days later he was dead, his passenger dead, and a widow was left with an unborn child.

 

If you don't want to be strangled by external regulation then self regulation is the only way to go. Survival of the luckiest has no place in aviation.

 

Good onya Darky- we don't have to be the judge and jury, but we can't be ignorant and oblivoius and remain innocent either.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Darky is doing the right thing. If there is a problem its CASAs job to fix it, Darky just gets the ball rolling.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Here is the procedure. It's very much to the point and does not involve ringing anyone other than ATSB or trying to sort it out by a talk yourself.

 

Remember, that someone else may have submitted an Incident report, even the offending pilot if he or she doesn't want to face licence/Certifiate suspension or a fine, so you can get caught out going down that path.

 

You submit your report, ATSB is the judge and jury.

 

AUSTRALIAN TRANSPORT SAFETY BUREAU

 

ACCIDENT OR INCIDENT NOTIFICATION

 

Accidents and serious incidents (commonly called Immediately Reportable Matters), which affect the safety of aircraft must, in the first instance, be notified to the ATSB by telephone toll free call:

 

1800 0011 034 or fax 02 6274 6434.

 

Online Form: This Secure Aviation Accident or Incident Notification form is to be used to notify the ATSB about all aviation safety occurrences.

 

Accidents and serious incidents are required to be immediately notified to the ATSB in accordance with Section 18 of the Transport Safety Investigation Act 2003.

 

Written notifications are required to be submitted within 72 hours of an accident, serious incident, or incident in accordance with Section 19 of the transport Safety Investigation Act 2003.

 

The written Notification should contain as much information about the accident, serious incident, or incident as is within the knowledge of the person at the time of submitting the Notification.

 

This is the Link: www.atsb.gov.au/mandatory/asair.aspx

 

Choose phone or Online form