Trigear or tail wheel ?

[Mackay777]

Hi Everyone!

 

I am close to finish ( 80%-80% ) my 601 HD. I'm only wresling with the question to make it with trigear or tail wheel. Any pro and con's? I really like your inputs. Thank's

 

 

[facthunter]

I'm a dedicated little wheel down the back person, but they are not for everybody. Mostly the nosewheel on a U/L is relatively weak, so if you fly often and operate on a rougher than normal strip, you might consider a tailwheel. I don't think that many 601's are configured this way, or whether they require a larger fin and rudder to improve control. You will be in a minority IF you do decide to go this way. Use a good tailwheel assembly like a Scott.

 

I've just looked up some Data in the T/W version. Looks good but doesn't look as if the plane will be anything like fully stalled in the 3 point position, requiring the wheeler landing technique to be the basic method. If the wheels are well forward of the Cof G then the landings become harder to get right, as they bounce easily, and groundloop easier.. If you don't have the wheels well forward then you can more easily put it on it's nose with brake application. You can change the characteristics with just the wheel position. You've always got the possibility of going on the nose if you are careless with the brakes anyhow so I would favour not having the wheels well forward. It's easier to lift and carry the tail when moving the plane around as well. You can just put it on your shoulder and it will balance fine. Nev

 

 

[PapaFox]

I know with the XL TD, a full stall 3 pt is not possible, however at normal CoG, it doesn't like wheelers either (needing a fast and flat approach). Not a problem, as it lands perfectly in the 3 point attitude without a tendancy to bounce or do anything nasty. Touchdown speed is the key though

 

 

[facthunter]

So it doesn't like wheelers and lands in the 3 point attitude unstalled. How does it handle gusts? A wheeler is my way (generally) of handling gusty conditions. The combination of you and the plane have to cope, or you'll bend it.

 

That's pretty interesting Cfi, regarding the Tiger. It's probably one with a sliding canopy and brakes fitted. They were about in the 50's. ( A mod from Canada I believe ), and in conjunction with fitting the brakes, the mainwheels were moved forward They were not popular amongst the pilots, who were ALL tailwheel people then ,as they tended to groundloop easily ...Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I'd go for the tail wheel version every day

 

 

[Mackay777]

I love all your comments, Thanks

 

I like to use my backyard, grass strip. I also fligh a Truster around.

 

 

[Guernsey]

I know, I know most of you spotted the spelling mistake, but a Truster is actually a Thruster which the owner has a lot of faith in.

 

Alan.

 

 

[lark]

Mostly only flown GA TDs. Although always found a good take off and landing much more rewarding in a TD!

 

 

[facthunter]

Little rudders on little planes need dancing shoes, and good reactions when they are a T/W. If you don't feel happy with them perhaps don't go there, though. You have to feel comfortable with it. ( But I have already told you what I think).. Nev

 

 

[68volksy]

It's largely to do with how it looks isn't it? I've seen arguments one way and the other - each better given the right circumstances. I've always loved the aesthetics of the tail-wheel when on the ground - looks like an eager puppy waiting to leap into the skies. That said when you're sitting inside it you can't appreciate it - same goes for sports cars...

 

 

[Doug Evans]

Tail for me !!

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

Nevs comment about weak nose legs on many ultra lights is not far off the mark. Having said that though, they really are not meant for landing on in any case so if you can land a n/w like a t/w then you will give your nose wheel aircraft an easier time. As an owner and sole operator this should be easier but in school environments you have to live with some of the landings while teaching the art.

 

I love tail wheels as well as they focus the pilot on good skill adherence ,and the prop clearance for rough fields are good for pilot and plane.the whole things a 2 sided coin flipped many times over the years and like most of these discussions make sure you try both and then at least you can personally understand and feel educated on the subject.

 

Cheers

 

 

[manna]

In reply to the weak nose wheels and / or legs on most Ultralight aircraft may be correct, but you need to take a serious look at the Zodiac nose wheel construction. These are solid and are not prone to the usual weakness you see. If was building again I would go with a tail wheel because I like the look of them, not because of any issues with the nose wheel version. The rudder on the Zodiac gives very good authority in crosswinds, which I have landed in 20 Knot from 60 degrees from port headwind. No issues.

 

They are a great plane.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Hi Everyone!I am close to finish ( 80%-80% ) my 601 HD. I'm only wresling with the question to make it with trigear or tail wheel. Any pro and con's? I really like your inputs. Thank's

Hi M777,

 

I'll try to be objective here (and I'll disclose that I'm pretty much a beginner in aviation). I'm currently doing flight training in a tailwheel plane. The only reason is because the nearest flight school only has tailwheel planes.

 

Personally, I believe (as Maj describes it) "having a training wheel on the front of the aircraft" -that is, it has tricycle gear- is a safer set up. When I get around to getting my own plane it will almost certainly have a tricycle undercarriage ...for added safety. Now, I agree that there are other factors which make some aircraft safer than others but the type of gear surely must have some bearing on it?

 

 

[Blueadventures]

Hi Everyone!I am close to finish ( 80%-80% ) my 601 HD. I'm only wresling with the question to make it with trigear or tail wheel. Any pro and con's? I really like your inputs. Thank's

Hi M777

My comments would be to get specific information about the Tri and TW variants of your particular model of aircraft and with these details make your decision; also consider the length, width and other close hazzards at the home airfiled and other places you may visit. Eg fences etc as you could ground loop the TW and also the usual wind direction (cross wind) as this will have an effect more so on the TW. Any photos. I'm in Mackay also and will be keen to see and hear when your airbourne.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

[boingk]

Personally, I believe (as Maj describes it) "having a training wheel on the front of the aircraft" -that is, it has tricycle gear- is a safer set up. When I get around to getting my own plane it will almost certainly have a tricycle undercarriage ...for added safety. Now, I agree that there are other factors which make some aircraft safer than others but the type of gear surely must have some bearing on it?

Personally I do not see either one as 'safer', much as a fire without a guard is just as safe as one with a guard - you just need to pay attention and make sure that *you* are doing the appropriate things.

 

A friend (who is an RAA instructor) told me no end about incidents and so-ons when I got my tailwheel endowed Minicab. I remember one story that went along the lines of a fellow nosing-over a near new something-or-other, and it happened 'for no reason'. I flat out called Bull Sh!t and told him that it must have resulted from pilot error - even with my low tailwheel time (15 hours or so) I am accutely aware that things will get out of hand if you let them. One other factor I suspect was that this particular fellow had never flown a tailwheel.

 

I would recommend them to anyone as they are just another aircraft with a slightly different set of needs. No flaps? Sideslip. No nosewheel? Stay on that rudder and stick full back on takeoff then ease forward as your IAS rises toward takeoff speed. Same on landing but with speed slowing. Rudder full forward when taxiing with a tailwind. Other than that they fly just as nicely as any other aircraft, with the added bonus of having better aerodynamics due to the generally diminutive tailwheel.

 

All my flying before the Minicab was in nosewheels (C150M and Skyfox Gazelle CA25N), and I have no qualms whatsoever (now that I have had tailwheel training) about flying tailwheels.

 

Cheers - boingk

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Nose dragger, unless you intend to operate from sand, or unmade strips!

 

 

[lark]

Taildraggers have the effect of stopping you from becoming lazy or complacent, as you are aware that you are only as good as your last landing. Even if you dont regularly fly a td it improves your confidence and ability in nosewheel machines. At the end of the day having td experience adds another string to your bow and can open up more variety, fun and opportunities for different flying experiences.

 

 

[68volksy]

Not to mention the various new land-based flying activities you'll one day find yourself involved in - the ubiquitous ground-loop and the ever-so-amusing (to those outside the aircraft) "inverted park with a bent prop and your legs sticking up"...

 

I've often heard the phrase "There are two types of tailwheel pilots - those that have ground looped and those that are yet to groundloop".

 

 

[boingk]

I've often heard the phrase "There are two types of tailwheel pilots - those that have ground looped and those that are yet to groundloop".

I've heard a similar thing with motorcycles in regards to 'coming off', and think the use of both phrases - and all like them - is total bulldust.

 

Its like saying there are only two types of pilots - those that have crashed, and those that are yet to crash.

 

If you have an incident of any type in an aircraft you are familiar with (ie received appropriate training) then you are doing something wrong.

 

- boingk

 

 

[Guest nunans]

I think a nose leg has to be considerably stonger than a tail wheel on a given aircraft, this is due to the leverage applied to the nose gear while being pushed along from above. If the wheel hits a bump it gets pushed back and the mass of the plane does the damage.

 

Most tail wheels are very flimsy and seem to last because the tail gear is being dragged and can just bounce up over the bump on a spring leaf etc.

 

The main gear on a TW are at an advantage because there are two wheels out front to share the load and they can be built much stronger because they don't have to be steerable.

 

Also I've noticed on aircraft like a warrior, with two people up front and nothing in the second row the main gear seem too far back to easily land on the mains only without letting the nose gear flop down. Ofcourse they are heavier than our RA aircraft and can afford the weight of a suspension strut out front to absorb the load.

 

 

[68volksy]

We all get it wrong sometimes...

 

 

The DC3 crosswind in that video is some damn good footage!

 

 

[eightyknots]

We all get it wrong sometimes...

 

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

We all get it wrong sometimes...

 

I hope Boingk was watching that one!

And people wonder why I always say the three main ingredients to a good landing are; rudder, rudder and more rudder! Yes even in a 'nose dragger'...

 

 

[boingk]

I've seen it somewhere before, can't remember where. Might have been on rcgroups dot com, which I also frequent, as I'm an avid aeromodeller.

 

Only thing I don't agree with is the videos comment toward the end that nosewheel craft do not require rudder in crosswind landings - my word they do! Try landing any nosewheeled craft in a strong (15~20kt) crosswind and tell me afterward you didn't need very fine rudder control... and lots of it! Learning to fly in Goulburn there is often a stiff crosswind and it has become second nature to fly and operate in them.

 

My advice is fly every maneuver as though your life depends on it - because it often does!

 

The one thing a pilot cannot afford is complacency.

 

Cheers - boingk