Kyle Communications Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 I met Peter back in 2003 I sold and installed a satphone for his caravan I didnt know he used to fly until about 2 or 3 years later when I did some more work for him. I found him to be a nice guy and also very switched on when it came to tech stuff. I was shocked when I saw the accident on the news that day and pretty much knew it was him when they said one pilot was from Qld. My thoughts and sympathies go out to his family On Jay A's explanation I am glad the Sav has the 6 litre "reserve" tank with the warning light so as soon as the tank gets airspace in it there is a 10mm flashing led right in front of my eyes to alert me to that fact so even if you forget to switch a tank this will warn you before you run out of fuel. Again this is a valuable lesson for us all on fuel management and concentrating on what you are doing and when all the time when flying Mark
farri Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 This event is terribly sad and if anything, it will teach us all that we are human and we all make errors no matter how experienced we are.David David, too true!!! It`s something I don`t have to learn because it`s something I`ve always known and accepted and am always aware of and hopefully ready for!!!! The Chinook I built and started flying in, had a fuel tank hanging on the truts, under each wing! I had a fuel line coming from each tank,then going into one line to the fuel pump! Right beside me on my left, I had a fuel tap in each line from the tanks, 2 taps in total! For whatever reason, the fuel would drain a little faster from one tank than the other so I would simply turn off the tap on the lower tank, let them even out ( I had a clear section in the middle of the tanks which allowed me to see the fuel level ) then turn the tap back on! No real problem!!! This day, after the tanks had evened out, I put my hand down, turned the tap and thought no more about it! No cough, No splutter, the engine just stoped!... Height 500` agl....Wasn`t interested in looking for the cause at that point, only interested in landing safely.........Landed safely in a local cane farmers padock, only to discover that I`d turned the wrong tap! I turned off the one that was on, instead of turning on the one that was off. Flew it out! Another lesson learnt!!! Frank. Ps, And now I`m going flying!!!
Spin Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 A sobering reminder indeed - on several levels, not only the fuel selection issue but also to keep flying the plane no matter what, especially considering that they had the whole lake to splash down in if necessary. The engine may well have stopped at a critical stage of the flight and I don't pretend to know what happened but there are lessons to be learnt even from considering what may have caused this tragic accident. Something else that can contribute to confusion in situations like this is having two pilots flying together and possibly sharing the workload - I can think of two situations in my own experience where having my "help" in the right hand seat may have caused a pilot to relax more than he should have and having things go slightly awry as a result. Having a clear chain of command is important. I'm having difficulty in phrasing this, but I find comfort in the fact that they died on impact, rather than drowned - I had been a little disturbed by the admittedly second hand media version of the story; that the fishermen got to the wreck fairly quickly but didn't attempt to free them from the cockpit, which was underwater. RIP
Methusala Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 A very small point here. When there are two of us in the cockpit we always say either, "Handing over!" or, "Your aeroplane!" This removes any confusion as to who is the pilot flying. Cheers and my sympathy to those who are grieving, Don
Guest Maj Millard Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 In reference to Marks' #91 post. The 10 ltr sump tank in the Savannah with the warning light that aluminates when the level drops below 10lts ,is one of the best, and most effective fuel warning systems I've seen in a long time. This coupled with the Savannahs' 160 ltr fuel capacity (with the dual tanks) makes for a very safe fuel system. By the sound of things, it may well have saved two good pilots in this case, had it been used in the Petrel. The warning light also has a 'press-to -test ' function that can be part of the preflight system. Unfortunatly even the best systems in the world will fail if not monitored, or operated correctly, and does highlight the fact that we as the PIC, can still be the weakest link, regardless of experience.....................................................................Maj...
Kyle Communications Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 I havent fitted mine yet just looked at it....didnt seem like 10 litres but possibly could be...I was told it was 6 litres....the more fuel the better. I have been advised to replace the std lamp though with a flashing led I will make a 10mm red one and it is directly on top of my Brauniger so I wont miss it... I also have fitted extra fittings and extended them with alu tubes to go to the root and they are fitted with clear tube so I can actually see the fuel in all 4 tanks as well at a glance Mark
Guest Maj Millard Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Mark, It is an important part of the system to have a push-to-test function on the warning lamp, so you can verify that it is operational . Not sure if that'll be posible on the LEDs. I have 1/8" warning lights on my panel and when placed at eye level are very bright and impossible to miss when lit. I'm pretty sure that tank is 10 lts, which with a 100hp 912 is about 30 minutes worth of fuel. If it takes you more than half an hour to spot a bright warning light, and find a place to land, than you probabily shouldn't be flying in the first place !.......................................................................................Maj...
Kyle Communications Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Yes I will have the push to test function on the flashing led. You can buy a led that has the flasher built in it is just a matter of hooking volts to the led with a test button to test that the led is working...no different if it was a bulb. The flashing attracts more attention of course and leds are far more reliable than a lamp. Jaycar have a 10mm flashing led about 2 bucks I think.... just need to find or make a nice bezel to fit it into Mark
motzartmerv Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 OMG..what a tragedy. If that report is accurate, a completely senseless waste of life... I have lost friends to wings falling off, major structural failures, but for such an every day, every flight "trick for players' to end up in two deaths.. non fathomable..90% of engine failures are fuel ralted. 90% of those are incorrect tank selection..
Guest Maj Millard Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Yes the LEDs are neat and even the small ones are quite bright. At Air Whitsunday we are currently looking at replacing all the standard exterior lights (nav lights, rotating beacon,strobes) on the Beavers and Caravans with the LED equilivent. One of the advantages that we hope will a big advantage on amphibious aircraft, is that they are completly sealed, and there is very little to corrode with salt water exposure..................................................................Maj....
PapaFox Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 I agree that visual/audio alarms are an important addition to the fuel system. We have both on our Dynon, and it definately provides a good level of backup just in case we forget to change tanks. I've set alarms for 8L in each tank, and another IIRC at 2L. With it beeping away, alarms showing on both screens, and a big bright flashing LED, there is basically no way of inadvertantly unporting the pickup. It does, however, scare the bejebus out of me when I perform am exuberant turn on the ground and slosh the fuel away from the sender!
Guest Maj Millard Posted July 9, 2011 Posted July 9, 2011 Ign, papafox, motz, Alarms and warning lights are all good as long as they don't 'cry wolf,' or distract at critical moments, and become a problem in themselves. The Savvy set-up is just so simple and foolproof, that it deserves to be highlighted as a real step in the right direction for safety in our aircraft. All that said and done, it remains one of a pilots prime duties to keep fuel flowing to the engine at all times, as you know. Fuel systems by nature need to be kept as simple, and as foolproof as they can be. It is after a few hours in the cockpit on a long nav, that simple things can become mundane and confusing, and even the best can make mistakes, but fuel management must always remain very close to top of the list for attention ..As Motz said above, if this report is true,' a completely senseless waste of life'............................................................................................................................. Maj...
Guest davidh10 Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 As we all know, there is seldom a single cause of any accident, and while I have been reluctant to make any comment to-date, in the light of other contributory factors relating to the accident, as posted by Jay, it perhaps should be understood that on the morning of the flight, there was a very single mindedness to meet his potential buyer on-time. The nature of the thought process and resulting behaviour has been well characterised, in aviation safety circles, by the term "get-there-itis". This information may help paint a bigger picture in terms of the purpose of this forum. ie. to discuss the possible causes of an accident, with the objective of preventing other similar occurrences. Obviously the authorities will make some judgement as to the importance or otherwise of these events to the cause. Again, my condolences to those left behind. It is indeed very sad.
Kyle Communications Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 Just got home from being away this weekend. Got the sav reserve tank and took some pics for those who maybe interested. Now looking at it in detail it probably would be 10 litres and it has the fuel drain at the bottom to get rid of any water etc. The bottom pipe is the feed for the engine the 2 at the top one is for the in from the tank the other is used for a breather back to the top of the tank so when it does empty and the light comes on when you switch tanks it should fill up easily because of the breather and then the light goes off. If it doesnt go off after switching tanks then start looking to land quickly I would think. I took the sensor out of the tank it just screws out as there is a threaded bush molded into the tank. it looks like a capacitive sensor. I am sure you could get the complete unit or even just the sensor from Reg Brost or Outback Aircraft direct Mark 1
Bubbleboy Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 Just got home from being away this weekend. Got the sav reserve tank and took some pics for those who maybe interested. Now looking at it in detail it probably would be 10 litres and it has the fuel drain at the bottom to get rid of any water etc. The bottom pipe is the feed for the engine the 2 at the top one is for the in from the tank the other is used for a breather back to the top of the tank so when it does empty and the light comes on when you switch tanks it should fill up easily because of the breather and then the light goes off. If it doesnt go off after switching tanks then start looking to land quickly I would think. I took the sensor out of the tank it just screws out as there is a threaded bush molded into the tank. it looks like a capacitive sensor. I am sure you could get the complete unit or even just the sensor from Reg Brost or Outback Aircraft directMark Mark...great pics as im thinking about this setup for my build. The breather at the top, does that vent out to the atmosphere higher than the main tank or does it vent into the main tank? Scotty
Kyle Communications Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 I will be running it to the top of the tank. I have 4 tanks and have fitted the top and bottom fittings in all so I can monitor the fuel level. The breather will come up and just Tee into one of the top pipes these are out to atmosphere via the filler cap so will allow which ever tank I am switched to to drain into the reserve tank and refill it once the indicator has come on. This way when you do switch the tanks the light should go off this way you KNOW the engine is getting fuel 2
skyfox1 Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 Why have any taps at all why not run everything into one feeder tank just gravity feed each tank equaly ,l dont have any taps in any off my aircraft my drifter or my skyfox then there is no mistakes.
facthunter Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 What a shame. Fuel systems have to be the safest (& simplest) possible. Fancy gauges are not the answer either. I'm 100% with Maj on this. A collector with enough fuel to land the plane plua a small margin, has to be the aim. I've always believed this . If you select individual tanks they may have a flight condition where not all the fuel is available to the engine. ( Sideslipping or steep climb angle.). IF you have a collector with say 20 mins duration you can turn all tanks on and all the fuel will eventually end up available for the engine. This only works if the system is gravity feed to the collector. The more complex the fuel system the more chance it will bite you. (one day). Nev
Kyle Communications Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 Hi Skyfox Fuel is a very important part of any engine and I think you need to be able to see and control it with some authority. I have 4 tanks in the Sav I would only have the outside tanks filled when going a long distance. For this reason I would like to be able to drain these tanks totally and what better way than to use it flying. This is why I want to see how much fuel is in every tank with the extra fuel monitoring lines I have put in also I want to be able to switch them for the reasons above. The 2 switches that control the inboard tanks will be not so easily accessible or bumped and the 2 outer tank switches will be easier to get and still not easily bumped but all are within the range of my hand. Also being able to switch off any tank either for maintenance or say a get a leak I want to be able to switch that tank off even as a matter of safety. A few have told me that I am going overboard about it and it isnt necessary but I can be a bit pedantic about things at times and I just think total control over one of the most important things in the aircraft is a good thing. Also with the savs reseve tank arrangement it nearly makes all of this almost fool proof...because nothing is fool proof Mark
Bubbleboy Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 Hi Mark...thank you again for the pics. Im not being pedantic here or pretend to know what im doing but is it normal practise to use hose clamps on fuel lines like that in a plane? Please tell me if it is as im learning here and will come to a time when I will have to do that. I thought (scratching my head) that all lines like that had to be screw fittings? Scotty
Guest Maj Millard Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 Bubbleboy, It is common practise on our level of aircraft to use screw-clamps and rubber fuel hose. I won't use any fuel line unless it is black, from the US. I have been dissappointed with the red rubber hose, as it seems to crack the outer sheath fairly readily. If you putting fuel line in a position where it won't be easily accessable, like for instance Savannah wing-tanks, than I would definitly use US made, black rubber hose, and nothing else. All rubber hose looks good and equal when it is new. I see a lot of fuel line with years of use on it, so I am in a position to make good comparisions. It is something I take a particular interest in, and there is nothing but US made hose in my plane. If you are pushing rubber hose onto barb fittings, look for a good tight fit, but not so tight that you need to be Attula the hun to push it on. Also not so loose that you use the clamp to squeeze the rubber onto the barb to seal it. you can double clamp on lines that are pressurized by boost pumps if you have the room for two clamps. I use nothing but quality Tridon brand Stainless clamps. Do not overtighten clamps. Fuel line leaks are a pain, and dangerous, so do your best to avoid ever having any !...remember keep it as simple as possible, for added reliability.............................................Maj...
facthunter Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 The most important thing relating to clamped hose fittings is to have a rolled raised portion that the hose goes over or have a strip of metal under the clamp attached to some part adjacent ot the hose connection. The hose just cannot rely totally on the clamping force. Thought I'd mention something that is not always done. Nev
av8vfr Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 If you putting fuel line in a position where it won't be easily accessable, like for instance Savannah wing-tanks, than I would definitly use US made, black rubber hose, and nothing else. I do not know Savannah but I would recommend a solid fuel line for this.. In fact all fuel lines should be solid pipe except where there is a transition between bulkheads for vibration. All flexible fuel hose within the engine bay should be covered with a fire sleeve wrap. I agree with Maj on the double clamps....
Bubbleboy Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 Bubbleboy, It is common practise on our level of aircraft to use screw-clamps and rubber fuel hose. I won't use any fuel line unless it is black, from the US. I have been dissappointed with the red rubber hose, as it seems to crack the outer sheath fairly readily. If you putting fuel line in a position where it won't be easily accessable, like for instance Savannah wing-tanks, than I would definitly use US made, black rubber hose, and nothing else.All rubber hose looks good and equal when it is new. I see a lot of fuel line with years of use on it, so I am in a position to make good comparisions. It is something I take a particular interest in, and there is nothing but US made hose in my plane. If you are pushing rubber hose onto barb fittings, look for a good tight fit, but not so tight that you need to be Attula the hun to push it on. Also not so loose that you use the clamp to squeeze the rubber onto the barb to seal it. you can double clamp on lines that are pressurized by boost pumps if you have the room for two clamps. I use nothing but quality Tridon brand Stainless clamps. Do not overtighten clamps. Fuel line leaks are a pain, and dangerous, so do your best to avoid ever having any !...remember keep it as simple as possible, for added reliability.............................................Maj... Excellent...thanks guys! I can say I learnt something today! Scotty
Kyle Communications Posted July 10, 2011 Posted July 10, 2011 Hi Bubbleboy You picked up on that mistake I made back then. The wings were one of the first things I made getting on to almost a year ago now. Those clamps are stainless Tridon clamps that Maj suggested BUT they are not like the rest of the clamps supplied in the kit. Those clamps are all solid no "teeth" holes in them. The main fuel line has them you can see in the pic and I have these now in the smaller size for the ones you picked out in the pics. Although there is no pressure on these lines I am replacing them with the norm used throughout the kit on all fuel lines. I will fix these up when the wings come back over to here. I made them at my mother inlaws place as I didnt have the room here then. I also have nutserted all the cover panels for the tanks rather than rivet the panels as done in the kit. This will give me easier access if anything goes wrong in the tank area or I have any leaks...a lot of work to do all the nutserts but better than having to drill out all those rivets and there is a lot in 4 tank covers Mark
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