J 170 Ground roll

[Kyle Communications]

The 2 strips I have put in up at my farm are just 400 mtrs each...here is a video of 2 Zenith CH701's and 2 savannahs one old one and one VG so previous models landing and taking off there just after they were dozed..this is real world stuff and you can see how much distance is required especially considering it was a terrible day with crosswind to 20 knots coming in at 70 degrees to the nose so almost sideways. Most of the takeoff runs are about 50 mtrs or less even with the bad crosswind and the last 701 had 2 POB and took about 75mtrs to take off

 

 

Mark

 

 

[puddles_7]

Hey Guys

 

I didn't realise that what I thought was a simple question would attract so much attention. I appreciate all your responses and discussions. There are a couple of Savannahs already housed at the strip and they have no trouble at all in any conditions with the strip length. I have nothing but admiration for the capabilities of the Sav's it s just that I am looking at all the possibilities available. At this stage I am looking for a plane that is a little more "Cessna like" in appearance but can still handle the short strip. The Jab is a good looking unit that is fine for new pilots, if there is anythin similar that will do the job I am glad to consider it.

 

Puddles

 

 

[Gundy]

Buy the latest Savannah its got a Rounded rear fuselage, its got all the same capability's as the old sav. And a 119 knot VNE. I love mine, theres not much else i'd own at the moment. I sold my last sav to a bloke who's got a 200mtr strip. He only had 80hrs on Jab's when he bought the Sav he has no trouble taking off at MTOW and landing in gusty conditions. Gundy

 

 

[puddles_7]

Hi Gundy

 

Probably is the best advice and most likely what I will end up doing but I want to explore all my opportunities first. I saw the new Sav at Natfly, the rounded fuselage is defintely an improvement on the old one as far as looks/sportiness goes.

 

 

[turboplanner]

While we are on this subject:

 

This is the link to CAAP 92-1 (1) (Civil Aviation Advisory Publication) on landing areas.

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/download/caaps/ops/92_1.pdf

 

One very important requirement is to have a full length landing area available off both ends of the strip to cope with an engine failure after take off.

 

If you don't have this you might as well buy yourself a handgun and practice Russian Roulette because it will be quicker and less painful.

 

Only in recent years a pilot killed himself and passenger operating from a strip with one end abutting a forest. Inevitably the two stroke cut out leaving him staring at a forest with nowhere to go; control had passed from him to fate.

 

I'm sure if he could talk from the grave he would be saying it wasn't worth it.

 

 

[bushpilot]

Hey GuysI didn't realise that what I thought was a simple question would attract so much attention. I appreciate all your responses and discussions. There are a couple of Savannahs already housed at the strip and they have no trouble at all in any conditions with the strip length. I have nothing but admiration for the capabilities of the Sav's it s just that I am looking at all the possibilities available. At this stage I am looking for a plane that is a little more "Cessna like" in appearance but can still handle the short strip. The Jab is a good looking unit that is fine for new pilots, if there is anythin similar that will do the job I am glad to consider it.

Puddles

The "Cessna like" appearance thing is also usefull in convincing first time and nervous passengers that they are climbing into a 'substantial' aircraft.. Don't ask me why - but we see it all the time in our hangar with 3 Jabs, a Zenith, a Savannah (part-time), a RANs and Cessna 172 - visitors see the Jabs as being similar to the 172, just a bit smaller - and feel comfortable about that..

 

 

[ianboag]

Jabs are nice planes. Slippery though.

 

On approach (LSA 55, J200, J160 are what I have flown) the general problem is that it is easy to slow down and easy to descend. It just gets a bit tricky trying to do both at the same time :-)

 

 

[winsor68]

it is easy to slow down and easy to descend. It just gets a bit tricky trying to do both at the same time :-)

Thats a brilliant line... lol pmsl. But so apt to slippery aircraft.

 

 

[Guest Jake.f]

.

 

 

[Willborne]

I think most of the general public see the Cessna and Warrior like designs as the 'traditional' GA aircraft, I have to admit I like the look of Cessna's but their design inside is rather outdated with the very narrow cabin.

Hey GuysI didn't realise that what I thought was a simple question would attract so much attention. I appreciate all your responses and discussions. There are a couple of Savannahs already housed at the strip and they have no trouble at all in any conditions with the strip length. I have nothing but admiration for the capabilities of the Sav's it s just that I am looking at all the possibilities available. At this stage I am looking for a plane that is a little more "Cessna like" in appearance but can still handle the short strip. The Jab is a good looking unit that is fine for new pilots, if there is anythin similar that will do the job I am glad to consider it.

Puddles

Have you considered a Tecnam Echo or Golf both are capable of easily landing and taking off in less than 400m with good control authority at low speed? Tecnams have the Cessna like appearance and performance to boot.

 

 

[bushpilot]

I think most of the general public see the Cessna and Warrior like designs as the 'traditional' GA aircraft, I have to admit I like the look of Cessna's but their design inside is rather outdated with the very narrow cabin.

Agree with that... But they definitely fixed the interior with their Cessna 162 "Skycatcher".. http://www.cessna.com/single-engine/skycatcher/skycatcher-interior.html

 

 

[puddles_7]

Have you considered a Tecnam Echo or Golf both are capable of easily landing and taking off in less than 400m with good control authority at low speed? Tecnams have the Cessna like appearance and performance to boot.

Willbourne

The Tecnam family (echo, golf & eaglet) would be great, as would the Sirius TL3000 but they are very rarely available 2nd hand and too expensive new. The Jabs are very competitive 2nd hand and there are always a few about for sale. If I could afford it Tecnams would be right new the top of the list.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Buy a Savannah...will land and takeoff in under 50 mtrs and land about the same. You can buy factory built ones or build one yourself. This video is a guy landing at his own very very small strip in basically suburbia not far from me here just north of Brisbane the video speaks for itself on how well they do their job...cruise is 90kntsBoth these pilots are very experienced

 

That's Ultralight's aeroplane landing there! He did a very skilful landing and take-off .

 

 

[facthunter]

The quiet achiever. Nev

 

 

[Willborne]

WillbourneThe Tecnam family (echo, golf & eaglet) would be great, as would the Sirius TL3000 but they are very rarely available 2nd hand and too expensive new. The Jabs are very competitive 2nd hand and there are always a few about for sale. If I could afford it Tecnams would be right new the top of the list.

I'm hearing you. I know of a second had Echo coming up for sale in the next few months, done a few hours but still is good condition. Let me know if your interested. Would be comparable price for what they are asking for good 2nd J170 and will hold its value.

 

 

[puddles_7]

I'm hearing you. I know of a second had Echo coming up for sale in the next few months, done a few hours but still is good condition. Let me know if your interested. Would be comparable price for what they are asking for good 2nd J170 and will hold its value.

Thanks Wilbourne

Let me know closer to the time

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

I did a test on my SK a few weeks ago to check whether it would be ok on a farm strip.

 

Here's the results:

 

Jab 2200, weight 240kg empty +90kg pilot +30 litres fuel = 355kg approx

 

Wind at 220/6kt; runway 23 sealed. A small amount of brake applied before rolling.

 

So a light total weight and 6 kt headwind.

 

results:

 

Ground run= 185m, estimated 50ft high at 330m.

 

Of course extra weight, unsealed strip and lack of wind on the nose will all increase these figures, but I think it takes off real good.

 

.......Bruce

 

 

[puddles_7]

Hi Bruce

 

Great to receive some figures from a test run - good work much appreciated. The 50' obstacle is only an issue at the northern end (nort-south strip) so only comes into play with a head wind. Have had a j-160 land and take off OK.

 

Cheers

 

Puddles

 

 

[turboplanner]

I did a test on my SK a few weeks ago to check whether it would be ok on a farm strip.

Two points here Bruce:

 

Firstly you have to be able to achieve 100 out of 100 on that strip with the range of pilot skills and aircraft which are likely to use it, and as we've seen someone in a J160 has already had a go. And this has to be achieved in all weather conditions. You may decide only to use it in calm conditions or with a steady headwind, and you can take off in those conditions but you can't guarantee the weather is likely to change, and what are you going to do if you're caught sitting up there and only put in enough fuel for a short flight?

 

Secondly this thread was about a Jabiru J170 with its unpredictable low speed handling dynamics. Landing roll will be reasonably predictable, but touch down point will not as I mentioned in Post #, and I repeat that I have seen a number of J170 landing approaches where the aircraft has been fluttering around enough that it is still airborne 540 metres down from the threshold, and that's beyond the end fence of this strip.

 

 

[facthunter]

Pilot ability to make short field landings varies. This was illustrated by an instance of an Auster from bankstown making over 20 attempts to land at the old district Park aerodrome at Newcastle. ( Which wasn't very big). I think he got the wheels on the ground half a dozen times, but never did manage to land it, and gave up and went back to Bankstown. Nev

 

 

[Bruce Tuncks]

Yes I have to agree with Turboplanner, especially about needing to do it 100% of the time.

 

The official distances are in the flight manual. For my SK the unfactored takeoff and landing distance is 479m to clear a 50ft obstacle.

 

Adding 15% margin gives 551m. This is at 430kg. I reckon the 170 being heavier would have a higher figure.

 

Here's my point: Check out the actual performance (flying it yourself) of whatever is being planned in a safe place first.

 

I reckon that a 500m strip with trees less than 30 ft will be ok for my SK flown light under good conditions.

 

There is a 3000ft town airstrip not too far away too, so there is somewhere to go if caught out by a weather change.

 

So my advice Puddles is to check out the flight manual, and do some test flying, in whatever you are thinking of getting. It's a good exercise.

 

... Bruce

 

 

[J170 Owner]

Hi GuysConsidering purchasing a second hand Jab J170 and running from a farm strip. What length strip is realistic considering the Jabiru website quotes landing roll 168m and take-off roll as 210m. The strip I use is currently 400m. I am looking for answers based on experience.

Cheers

 

Puddles_7

I own a J170 and in my opinion, 400m would be too short for me. You certainly can land in that distance but the J170 can float, can get lifted up easily during hold off and hard braking is 'scary' as it shakes the daylights out of the plane. I have had to go around on 600m strips because of the float and then a gust putting me 2m higher than I want. Do you have ALL the 400m available on landing? I just looked at some of my GPS tracks, my shortest ground roll on landing was 320M

 

 

[J170 Owner]

Question to the Jab RAA boys here:Do the Jabs have good quality Pilot Operating Handbooks (POHs) that spell out minimum approach speeds with and without flap to achieve specified landing and takeoff performance distances to clear a 50' obstacle in each case. In other words do they have what us boys who were trained GA call "P" charts? The "P" charts would typically have graphs showing the effects of grass short, grass long, hard surface certain % slopes, pressure height, temperature (density height), wind speed and direction etc.

 

I could determine the landing and or takeoff roll of a C150 or a PA28 or any such GA aircraft to a reasonably conservative accurate figure when I knew weight, pressure temperature and wind and surface.The POH figures were based on average pilot ability. If you were better than average you could better the figure ... so you thought ...

 

David

Short answer; no.