Can they do this?

[sseeker]

Hi all,

 

More of a GA orientated question. I sat my GA BAK exam on Friday which I passed. One of the questions was, "If you're flying in a nameless owned C152, when must you drain the fuel?"

 

a. Before every flight

 

b. After every refuel

 

c. After every refuel and before every flight

 

d. First thing in the morning only (not sure if this was an actual option although it was just an obviously wrong option)

 

I answered c which was correct although I didn't think they were allowed to add school only related questions in a generic BAK exam? What if someone only came to this nameless club to sit the BAK exam? For example an RAA student wishing to sit the GA BAK exam because they later wished to continue in GA training. They would have no idea about the school's policies so they'd get that question wrong.

 

Can they do that?

 

TO STUDENTS: The legal requirement is to drain fuel after every refuel and before the first flight of the day.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[rgmwa]

I guess the clue is the `nameless owned' C152. My school at Jandakot has the same policy (same school maybe?), so I would have answered as you did, given that legally correct reponse wasn't one of the options. Fair question though.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[sseeker]

Didn't want to name the school purely because a future student could come along (prior to sitting their BAK) and get a +1 on there exam nice and easy ;) The question I'm asking is, are they allowed to put school related policy questions on a nationally (possibly ICAO??) recognised exam?

 

-Andrew

 

 

[sseeker]

Ignition, none of those options are legally correct. After refuelling and before every flight isn't a legal requirement, the legal requirement is outlined in my post.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[sseeker]

Ignition you're missing the point. I'm asking are they allowed to put school related policy questions in a BAK exam that is nationally recognised?.

 

Why would someone get it wrong if they didnt know the schools policies, you could completely disregard the schools name in the question because its still able to be refered to accross the board at any school, in that case it appears to just be an example, The question couldve simply been 'When should a fuel drain be conducted?", I personally believe it shouldnt matter whether theyve put their school name and aircraft in there or not as you can still understand what its asking either way...

So tell me, when should a fuel drain be conducted?

 

I don't think that question would be asked in a BAK exam with those answers I've provided you with, as they're all incorrect for that question.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[djpacro]

There is also a legal requirement to comply with the approved flight manual for the airplane. I don't have a 152 manual handy but it would be interesting to take a peek at the pre-flight inspection instructions.

 

 

[kaz3g]

I wouldn't trust someone else's earlier fuel drain check if I was going to fly the aircraft... I'd want to check it again myself, anyway.

 

A C150 is a pretty simple check, but other's can be a tad trickier. My Auster has a drain under the belly tank and a Cessna type gascolator drain that everyone can find, but few realise there is a third tucked in between the undercarriage legs behind the bungees that drains the scuttle tank. Some of the bigger Pipers with tip tanks can fool the unwary because you have to drain several feet of fuel line before you actually sample the tank.

 

It doesn't take much water to stop the noise... dead!

 

My aircraft doesn't have a flight manual - it was built before they became required by the authorities - so it just comes down to common sense.

 

kaz

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Andrew,

 

I'm sorry no one has properly answered your question. The instruction your school gives you - " TO STUDENTS: The legal requirement is to drain fuel after every refuel and before the first flight of the day." (big bold letters are mine) is simply telling you what the CASA law requires.

 

The exam questions asks you what CASA requires. The BAK exam is not asking you about what your school says - after all there might be a school out there that says check the fuel on Tuesdays only, but that does not make it right by CASA regulations (which override school instructions). Your confusion is because you have seen this requirement in the school literature but not in the CASA legislation.

 

I will have to look for chapter & verse in the CASA legislation and post it here.

 

Sue

 

 

[sseeker]

Hi Sue,

 

Thanks for your reply. I would expect a policy related quesiton like this to be in a pre-solo/pre-area solo exam that the school writes. I thought BAK exams had to come from CASA and they tested you on CASA law/rules?

 

Also the to students note was something that I wrote (from CASA regs) just so students viewing this thread don't get confused.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Andrew,

 

The question on the BAK exam refers to this piece of law:-

 

Civil Aviation Order 20.2 Air service operations — safety precautions before flight

 

5. Fuel system inspection

 

5.1 (a) (ii) .. before the start of each day’s flying, and after

 

each refuelling, with the aircraft standing on a reasonably level

 

surface, drain a small quantity of fuel from each fuel tank into a clear

 

transparent container and check by an approved method for the

 

presence of water;

 

Hope this helps

 

Sue

 

 

[sseeker]

Sue,

 

I quoted that piece of law in my original post. I'm trying to say that there's no option there to answer the question "legally correct" basically the question is referring to the schools policy, which should not be allowed in a BAK exam?

 

-Andrew

 

 

[J170 Owner]

Hi all,More of a GA orientated question. I sat my GA BAK exam on Friday which I passed. One of the questions was, "If you're flying in a nameless owned C152, when must you drain the fuel?"

 

a. Before every flight

 

b. After every refuel

 

c. After every refuel and before every flight

 

d. First thing in the morning only (not sure if this was an actual option although it was just an obviously wrong option)

 

I answered c which was correct although I didn't think they were allowed to add school only related questions in a generic BAK exam? What if someone only came to this nameless club to sit the BAK exam? For example an RAA student wishing to sit the GA BAK exam because they later wished to continue in GA training. They would have no idea about the school's policies so they'd get that question wrong.

 

Can they do that?

 

TO STUDENTS: The legal requirement is to drain fuel after every refuel and before the first flight of the day.

 

-Andrew

I only drain the fuel before my first flight (DI) for the day or after refuelling the plane.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Another note - on these exams they sometimes put spurious information in to see if you can cut to the real issue. Lawyers are trained to do this, and it can be a little daunting to us mere mortals, but you have to look at things dispassionately, pare away the extraneous, spit out the pips and examine the flesh.

 

A question may ask "You will be flying a Cessna 152 owned by the Ettamogah Pub Flying Club on a wet Sunday in May. How often should you check the fuel?" They are asking how often to check the fuel on a light GA aircraft (ie subject to CAO 20.2, 5.1 (a)). You could argue that being wet you would check it more often, but that is airmanship (common sense & being safety conscious) but not required by this law. The answer they want is what the LAW says. After years at Uni I have learned to Always give the Examiner What He Wants. Regardless of what you think.

 

Sue

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

 

 

I quoted that piece of law in my original post. I'm trying to say that there's no option there to answer the question "legally correct" basically the question is referring to the schools policy, which should not be allowed in a BAK exam?

 

 

 

-Andrew

 

 

I am assuming (in the question) the "nameless owned" was something like "Jandakot Flying Club owned" in the original, and this has made you think it is refering to the policy of a school and not CASA legislation. Am I on the right track or is there something else here? I just hope I am being of some assistance.

 

 

 

Don't worry about giving away answers to prospective BAK exam people - these are computer generated selections from a lot of prepared questions so the next guy will get a different assortment. There are also practice exams you can get. At the end of the day CASA want you to know what your responsibilities are.

 

 

 

Sue

 

 

[sseeker]

I am assuming (in the question) the "nameless owned" was something like "Jandakot Flying Club owned" in the original, and this has made you think it is refering to the policy of a school and not CASA legislation. Am I on the right track or is there something else here? I just hope I am being of some assistance.

Sue

Yes Sue that's correct. The question wanted the schools policy answer which was c. After every refuel and before every flight. When in fact the legally correct answer is, after every refuelling and before the first flight of every day (which isn't in any of the options given).

 

I thought the BAK was supposed to be CASA generated, but this schools had its name all over it.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Just to throw it out there too, CASA dont set a BAK exam...

My apologies, I was getting it confused with the license exam. CASA did set and administer the BAK exam in the early 1990's before handing it over to Industry (ie flying schools, TAFEs etc). There is still a CASA requirement that it be based on the VFR Day syllabus. How Industry interpret that may be an issue. They may decide to interpret "based on" as strictly adhering to, or loosely hung, off the syllabus.

 

In this case it looks like they have strayed from the CASA syllabus into school policy. Can they do this? Strictly - No, but maybe Yes. It would be an issue if they marked the CASA answer wrong and the school answer right.

 

 

Fuel testing, maintenance releases are all problems for schools where lots of people fly the aircraft each day. The MR gets signed off at the beginning of the day and the figures are put in at the end of the day (well, usually next morning before first flight). Fuel gets checked before the first flight, but you may not know if you were the first or if it was refuelled etc, so schools usually get you to check fuel before each flight - and it is a good habit to instill in students.

 

Sue

 

 

[J170 Owner]

When I did my BAK the school would have it faxed to them from somewhere (Canberra I guess). That was in the eighties or nineties and for my private pilot licence. The school certainly didn't set it.

 

 

[sseeker]

My apologies, I was getting it confused with the license exam. CASA did set and administer the BAK exam in the early 1990's before handing it over to Industry (ie flying schools, TAFEs etc). There is still a CASA requirement that it be based on the VFR Day syllabus. How Industry interpret that may be an issue. They may decide to interpret "based on" as strictly adhering to, or loosely hung, off the syllabus. In this case it looks like they have strayed from the CASA syllabus into school policy. Can they do this? Strictly - No, but maybe Yes. It would be an issue if they marked the CASA answer wrong and the school answer right.

 

Fuel testing, maintenance releases are all problems for schools where lots of people fly the aircraft each day. The MR gets signed off at the beginning of the day and the figures are put in at the end of the day (well, usually next morning before first flight). Fuel gets checked before the first flight, but you may not know if you were the first or if it was refuelled etc, so schools usually get you to check fuel before each flight - and it is a good habit to instill in students.

 

Sue

Thanks for following up Sue. Like I said earlier in the topic, I don't really have a problem with it as I did get the question right. I just think it gives nameless school students an advantage over an outside student from say RAA, GFA or any other GA school coming in and sitting the exam. That one mark could make the difference between passing and failing.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[sseeker]

In this question, you can't arrive at the CASA required answer...

 

My question has been answered by Ignition and Sue, thanks to both of them. Thank you to everyone who contributed :thumb_up:

 

-Andrew

 

 

[Guest pookemon]

My (limited) understanding is that the exams are all set by the CFI for the school, must cover the prescribed (by CASA/RAA) area of the syllabus and are to be based around (a) your local flying conditions and (b) the aircraft type you are flying. So, for example, my pre solo exam was an RAA/GA mixture because I plan on progressing to GA. The questions were specific to the Gazelle that I fly (apart from the ones that related to flaps - which the Gazelle doesn't have). I thought this was rather odd, but when you think about it it makes sense. If you want to fly another aircraft you need to do a check flight for that aircraft (as well as have any additional endorsements required for that type). When you get your license you are trained on a particular type - and it's that type that you must understand.

 

However, the point that the legally correct answer isn't included as an answer on your exam is rather puzzling. Sure your school has a different requirement, which is above the legal requirement - but I would think that you'd teach the legal standard and then add that the school has a different requirement. I guess, given that the legally correct answer was not on the exam, the schools answer is the "correct" one (it's not "incorrect").