Circuit Hell

[redozbris]

Just a really quick question all, now doing circuits, and not having such a great time, Are there any tips pointers or thoughts from people who have be there and done that? More of a student question than a trainer/instructor question, but all comments welcomed...

 

Frazzled Red..

 

 

[rgmwa]

Just keep at it. A well-flown circuit is probably the most demanding test of aircraft control, short of aerobatics. I'm sure some of the instructors on the forum will chip in, but the key things are controlling your speed, especially on base and final, controlling your attitude, and flying a neat, consistent pattern with 90 deg corners. All easier said than done (especially if there is a cross wind), but because it involves judgement, coordination and wind awareness, the only way to learn is to keep practising.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[turboplanner]

Your reaction is normal, we've all been through it, a lot of frustration followed by total euphoria as you realize you've just pulled off a perfect one. Stick to it, concentrate and good luck.

 

 

[.Evan.]

As has been mentioned above by much more experienced people than me - your feelings are completely normal!

 

One thing that I found helpful for myself when learning to fly normal circuits was to make myself trim the aircraft properly and fly downwind almost 'hands off'. It took a little bit of time at first, but after a while it is automatic. Previously, I'd kind of trim the aircraft - y'know, near enough is good enough when you have bigger fish to fry as a student - but what it meant was that the aircraft wasn't settled and I was chasing it all the way down the downwind leg.

 

That extra couple of seconds to yourself can be put to better use - get your pre-landing checks done early, take a mental break for a couple of seconds while you carefully watch your spacing with the runway and plan your turn to base. Circuits are full on - there's action the whole time! Those couple of seconds mental rest helped me a lot.

 

Circuits are now my one of my favourite parts of flying. My instructor can fly them almost perfectly with the instrument panel covered up. I hope to be at that level one day!

 

Keep at it, Red!

 

 

[Tomo]

Keep working at it, there is light at the end of the tunnel! (and no it's not a train!!) We've all been there as the others have said, and you slowly but surely get better at it and you can then relax more and more...

 

I notice you're flying a Tecnam P92, they are a climby little thing, so make sure you have it trimmed well on downwind to fly straight and level. The electric trim in the P92 is rather slow... which can be a real pain at times to get the hang off. But it is doable with practice.

 

You'll get it mate, trust me! :thumb_up:

 

 

[Ultralights]

take it one step at a time, what your feeling is normal, then one circuit wil be a AhhHaa moment and it will all fall together, in the mean time, ask your instructor to look after things like radio calls, and downwind checks so you can concentrate on one thing, flying the aircraft and the pattern, once this becomes more second nature, then introduce things like the radio calls, and checks. but the key to a good landing, and circuit, is Look as far away as possible! right to the end of the runway and keep your eyes there!

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Circuits are fun when you grease landing after landing, not so much fun on windy days when you get 1 in 4.

 

 

[winsor68]

Yeah... thinking back to only a logbook hours ago for me... I reckon the advice to trim the aircraft is good. Or more importantly you need to find the trim setting that applies for flaps out turning final at the correct speed... and then you need to apply it when turning base accurately and without fuss. I found that if you spend 5 seconds trying to get the trim just.... so .... so... you are already behind the aircraft at a crucial point in the landing... but after a few hours you get better at finding that perfect position without too much thought. I guess during this period that importance and effect of the trim becomes more clear as we get more delicate with our feel for the controls.

 

 

[stanzahero]

I was always told a good landing starts on downwind - speed, height and preparation.

 

Pick one thing to concentrate on each circuit and you'll find they come together in the end.

 

Good luck and stick with it Red.

 

p.s. I'm not instructor, but it wast how I tackled it.

 

 

[.Evan.]

find the trim setting that applies for flaps out turning final at the correct speed... and then you need to apply it when turning base accurately and without fuss.

That's a great idea, Win. I must have started doing that without knowing it, because after a little while my approach speed would settle much quicker and require very little power changes until short final. Not every day, though!

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Red;

 

I'll second what Ultralights has said.

 

The pilot is quite busy in the circuit and it is easy for new student pilots to become task loaded beyond their capability. As various aspects become more automatic, you can add other tasks without becoming task loaded. This is the reason students should not start circuits until they have become reasonably proficient at aircraft handling, such as flying straight and level, climbing and descending turns, following roads and compensating for cross-wind.

 

It all relates to how our brains cope with learning. Conscious vs subconscious. It is the conscious brain that manages new tasks and easily gets task loaded. The subconscious brain is much harder to task load, but it only carries out learned procedures. As you learn procedures (they become automatic), it is because the conscious brain is able to off-load the task to the subconscious and just manage exceptions and new tasks.

 

We have all been there. Work with and discuss it with your instructor. Maybe you need to do some more work on handling skills before coming back to circuits. If that is not the case then Ultralights' suggestion is the way to go.

 

Another possibility, is that you may be progressing just fine, otherwise your instructor should be taking remedial action, without you having to ask, but having said that, if you are really struggling, talk with your instructor. Maybe s/he has not realised your level of discomfort.

 

 

[facthunter]

Some good advice there, but in regard to the trimming, put the plane where you want it, ( attitude wise) and hold it there. THEN remove the load on the stick with trim. Don't fly the plane on trim. This is a tendancy you can acquire and is a bad habit. The ATTITUDE of the aeroplane is the important thing whether you are visual or later on maybe, on instruments.

 

You should be able to hold an altitude to a fairly close tolerance over a speed and power range, before you fly circuits, otherwise you will be fighting it. IF you have to look at the instruments a lot, that is not desireable either. You mustn't chase the instruments. If you notice that your speed is a bit low (for instance) add power or lower the nose (or both) whatever is appropriate. Your airspeed WILL increase whether you watch the ASI or not, so you can glance at something else, (like the runway threshold), and then come back to the ASI to confirm that your speed has increased.

 

Originally the circuit will put you into overload, but it won't be long before you may find it a bit boring. This should never be allowed to happen because you can always put more effort into making it better.( and keeping an even better lookout). You have to be a reasonably accomplished pilot to do a good circuit, so you can't expect it to go easy at the beginning, so, don't be too hard on yourself. Nev

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Some time ago I did a private trip with a Yank ex CFI. He suggested that I do my downwind checks and THEN configure speed, flaps BEFORE turning base.

 

His reason was that turning base was when you are in the most vunerable position in the curcuit and getting that out of the way earlier gives you more time for visual awareness. I passed this view onto my then local CFI who said OK as long as they were completed. His teaching was to finish checks downwind and then configure on base.

 

I found this method a lot less stressful and now use it 100% of the time.

 

Only downside I can think of is if you have a busy curcuit it may slow down the movement by a few seconds also new pilots could run out of time on downwind.

 

 

[Piet Fil]

One of the things I did between flights (whilst walking my dogs) was to mentally visualising the process, including talking through everything as I would in the cockpit. I would start by mentally saying to myself "Ok I am approaching the aircraft" then talk myself through a pre-flight, engine start, taxiing, run-ups, take-off, circuit and landing. I would say aloud all my checks and radio calls as well as what I was doing, even physically moving my head as required. for example I would say " ready for my downwind turn, check left (look left), check right (look right), check over(look forward and up), check left (look left), lead with rudder and then gentle aileron, balance the turn, "Location Traffic, Jabiru XXXX, turning downwind runway 18, location", gentle roll out and balance the plane" (led to some weird looks from other dog walkers but who cares). What I found was that by doing this, once i was in the circuit my head could cope a lot easier with the workload and I still verbalise my intentions to myself, using a if it doesn't sound right then it may not be the right thing to do.

 

Worked for me

 

 

[turboplanner]

(led to some weird looks from other dog walkers but who cares)

This would be fairly normal for dog owners anyway.

 

 

[.Evan.]

in regard to the trimming, put the plane where you want it, ( attitude wise) and hold it there. THEN remove the load on the stick with trim. Don't fly the plane on trim.

I meant to say that Nev, but forgot. Thanks for reminding us! :thumb_up:

 

My instructor is very big on using the correct work-cycles. "Attitude, Power, Feel the force, Trim out the force" he'd say. I always would silently giggle to myself about the "feel the force" bit, and imagined Yoda sitting in the right seat.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Originally the circuit will put you into overload, but it won't be long before you may find it a bit boring.

Very true. Gnu had flown so many circuits he became the only person ever (possibly in all history?) to be bored with his first solo flight. In fact so bored my thoughts were starting to wander & I had to force myself to concentrate.

 

After doing a bunch of circuits and a full stop the instructor said "er.... most people are pretty excited about doing their first solo" Gnu: "it was OK, had no problems".

 

Good evidence I'm not normal I guess.

 

 

[Powerin]

Things seem to happen fast in a P92 in the circuit don't they! As hard as it is to believe now, what the others say above is true...it WILL just come to you as your brain learns to subconsciously manage things. Getting trimmed early and thinking/looking ahead is good advice, both for straight and level on downwind (I trim before turning downwind) and when descending on base. It's one less thing you need to concentrate on.

 

I struggled with radio calls and lost the plot in the circuit when trying to do them. This is one thing that's really easy to practice on the ground. Try to practice them every time you do something else complicated like driving a car. But don't practice them while you are just driving along, do them while turning a corner at traffic lights or going through a roundabout while giving way to traffic. 50 metres before you get to the corner think about what you are going to say, decide which leg you are turning and which runway ("Wagga traffic, Tecnam xxxx, turning downwind, runway 05, touch and go, Wagga"), then say it out loud while making the turn. On the next turn call the next circuit leg. Be careful, it's surprising how much extra concentration it takes even while driving a car. But it will quickly become second nature and another thing you don't need to concentrate on in the circuit.

 

I used to do it driving a loaded truck. I would decide on the call while slowing down for corners/roundabouts and managing speed, throttle, brakes and constant mesh gear changes. Then I'd make the call while turning and slotting into traffic. Next time I flew radio calls were a breeze. The idea is to train your brain to do several things at once.

 

 

[coljones]

And importantly for those wanting to play circuits with you that you call base at the end of downwind and final at the end of base so that those trying to take off know where you are and can respond appropriately. play well and have fun.

 

cheers

 

 

[bilby54]

Hey Red

 

Let the aeroplane do the work for you, don't try to over control things...

 

A quiet word of advice....... when you do a rip snorter of a bounce (and you will), try and see where the wheels end up in the scrub as it might help with pushing it back to the hangar!!

 

 

[redozbris]

hehe.. Already been there done that... I'm just not getting the sight pictures, I've figured out the reason, being over 6ft6-7 and sitting VERY high in the seat, I've got no peripheral vision, my subconscience is seeing the side of the aircraft and nothing outside, as all I am see if I look around, is the top of the doors, so thats the first problem, (That and trying to judge the first few turns is hard, I cant see the bloody airfield :) the second problem is that while I've got 18 or so hours up, only the last 10 have been with the school I am with, the previous hours have been spread over 5 other schools, I've emailed the CFI today and asked if I can go back and go from the start again, and just relearn everything that I've seemed to have missed, I still havent quite got the whole power for speed and pitch thing, because there isnt a lot of time when going downwind, I'm spending a lot of time fighting things.. and running out of times, than and dodging people in the air (a biplane decieded to cut accross the runway from the deadside, to the active side, over the threshold, to pull in behind us... agh)

 

The other thing that I learnt the other day is that you dont lead a turn with rudder, what a suprise to learn this, been doing it for months, no one has picked it up, first flight with a new instructor he asked on the crosswind turn why are you using rudder to lead? Now something else to unlearn and relearn, roll the blasted thing, and then use rudder to control it.. though I've got a feeling everyone has there own method..

 

Go figure, have never dropped a wing on a take off in 5 weeks, not once, spent the last 4 takeoffs dropping wings on rotation..

 

Lots of complaints, but I'll get there Just so bloody frustrating, and you cant perform when frustrated... Back to work..

 

 

[fly_tornado]

trim is really important to getting a feel for the plane, if the plane is un-trimmed you are holding the stick against pressure which destroys the feel you have for the plane's attitude.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...The other thing that I learnt the other day is that you dont lead a turn with rudder, what a suprise to learn this, been doing it for months, no one has picked it up, first flight with a new instructor he asked on the crosswind turn why are you using rudder to lead? Now something else to unlearn and relearn, roll the blasted thing, and then use rudder to control it.. though I've got a feeling everyone has there own method..

..

I'm not knowledgeable in this area, but I think it depends on the flight characteristics of the aircraft type. I was told to lead with rudder in a Drifter, due to the heaps of adverse yaw from ailerons, which was amply demonstrated.

 

 

[redozbris]

Where do I start... The first aircraft I flew was a foxbat, Nice I could handle that, though the throttle was a little under my leg, but I can work with that, sadly it got sold off, and the new foxbat I dont fit in, I'm 6ft6-7 110kgs, so being a tall bloke, the room needed to haul my frame around is quite large to say the least. So I had to give them away sadly, there is a sob story somewhere here about that, I dont want to give my instructors away, they are top blokes, and I honestly mean that, there is so much in my head that I have to get straight.

 

School 2 sadly wasnt for me, to far away from brisbane, good instructors, just to far away, there aircraft where GREAT, The Sierra was good. School 3 was the same thing, Just to far away, Driving for 1 3/4 hours to get there for a couple of lessons was just killing me, Loved the aircraft and location, just couldnt justify three/four hours on the road for 1-2 hours flight time. School 4 where just drop ins while I was on holidays. School 5 is where I am know.

 

Its been a bit of a slog for me currently, when I first started looking at the start of the year, I was keen on GA, and keen to spend my weekends in Toowoomba (another 2 hour drive from brisbane), the CFI and Staff where great, site was great, aircraft in great condition, prices reasonable for GA, but again, I would have to spend 4-5 hours driving for a couple of hours on site, I toyed with the idea of doing blocks of training, but I simply cant be away from work for that long. I tried GA in brisbane, but Class D Airspace is just scary, not for me, way to much happening for my liking, I like the pace of where I am currently, all you have to worry about it people joining on base and the average piloting skills of red haired wonders..

 

So thats my story to date... I'm happy where I am, I recently tweeked my flying days from saturday to a sunday to make better use of my time, after working all week, I'm usually a little stuffed on saturdays, this way I can recoup a little and concentrate on what is happening rather than being tired.

 

@CFICare -- the guys I'm with now are great, Wish the aircraft where bigger, but you cant help that, I've got a choice between driving 1 1/2 - 1 1 3/4 hours to boonah for flights in the super echo, or going to caboolture, there both good training schools, and the fi's are easy to get along with, when I am not stuffing people around.

 

@DavidH10 -- This is what I was shown and it seemed to work well for me, Though the turns can get a little uncordinated, but for me I always felt it was just me forgetting 'Right Rudder', its quite odd, my right leg goes to sleep, as I go into 'car mode', because where you up to speed in a car, you dont need a lot to keep it going, you just rest your right clod hopper on the pedal and off you go, this is what I am doing, and it plays havock with me.

 

@Fly-Tornado -- I complety agree with Trim the bugger out, I've actually started to trim just after the downwind turn (just on the turn) as the trim takes a good 4-5 seconds after setting up on climb out, I've always been told, P - A - T Power attitude trim, so on take off, firewall over a period of three seconds, Wait for speed, pull the nose wheel, and the aircraft will seperate on its own accord, with gentle pressure, keep the wings level, and off we go (doing checks etc etc etc), so once the attitude is in, trim, so you can releave the pressure, usually 1 1.5 back on the guage. turn, at 1000 feet turn after looking at the airfield, if your far away or to close, fix it up of course, then I've found if I get the trim sorted out on very early downwind, The stuffing around that I need to do is limited, bumpfishwt (one of the instructors adds WT, I like the idea for Windsock and Threshold, keeps me prompted and paying attention)

 

The other big problem I'm having sadly, and I've only noticed it since I've started to fly, is that when my eyes move away from the front of the aircraft, my hands follow... not since I learned to drive 18 years ago has this happened.. Its quite bizzare.. Something else that suffs me up, especially if I stuff up at late downwind, and forget to pull power and trim back, if I look out the side all of sudden we've got up 50ft because my hands follow my eyes.. Though I must admit that my grip has been a LOT more relaxed of late, when I first started my hands use to grip the yoke/control column like a baseball bat, the guys in caboolture have shown me a much nicer way to fly, they call it the wineglass hold, not being a drinker, I dont know, but I've taken there advice on board, and its making control a little easier..

 

Thats it from me for now, thanks everyone, I'll get there in the end without a doubt...

 

 

[Chrism]

Very true. Gnu had flown so many circuits he became the only person ever (possibly in all history?) to be bored with his first solo flight. In fact so bored my thoughts were starting to wander & I had to force myself to concentrate.After doing a bunch of circuits and a full stop the instructor said "er.... most people are pretty excited about doing their first solo" Gnu: "it was OK, had no problems".

 

Good evidence I'm not normal I guess.

I totally get that! I think I was way past 20hrs by the time I got to go solo. I wouldn't say I was bored, but just sort of ran through the motions! It was a bit exciting, but more of a relief.

 

Back to the original question of the thread, I felt like I would never get a circut right, too. Just stick at it and absorb the advice thats been given

 

Chris