Registration of refurbished aircraft

[Guest nunans]

Hello all,

 

I'm new to all of this so if i'm in the wrong section let me know.

 

I'd like to find out about registering an aircraft that has been unregistered for some time, the subjest is a thruster that has new skins etc that i'm considering buying.

 

I don't know what the rego number used to be on the aircraft or how long it has been unregistered.

 

So what's involved?

 

 

[Spin]

Your best bet would be to pick up the phone and call RA-Aus in Canberra, they are helpful in my experience and after all they are the ones who will need to issue the paperwork at the end of the exercise.

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Hi Nunans,

 

It probably depends almost as much on the condition and completeness of the log books and previous registration paperwork of the aircraft as much as the condition of the actual aircraft, to establish it's history and that you're the rightful owner etc . . . no doubt some of the Thruster folk on this forum will fill in the Thruster specifics.

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[Guest nunans]

Ok, so previous rego details and log books would be needed. I have only talked to the son in law of the owner who has no aviation background at all, he is selling on behalf of the owner who is unwell.

 

 

[eastmeg2]

!!!! CAUTION !!!! SCAM-ware scan required.

 

 

[Kenchhidu]

Is this the Red one on eBay? I would suggest reading the "Sharks in Aviation" thread and seriously consider the advice. Im not saying its a scam but could cost a bit to get airworthy if there is some unknown problems.

 

 

[Riley]

Eastmeg2

 

Are you aware of some dodgy facts regarding either the Thruster or the vendor in this ebay auction that the rest of us should know about or are you simply confirming the adage of "if it's too good to be true, it usually is"? I do agree, descriptions of "almost xx hours on engine and "around xx hrs on airframe" in the ad doesn't indicate that a logbook is available or being referred to however, your post might be unfairly off-putting to a potential bidder if not justifiable. Please advise if you have any info which indicates a potential 'scam' in this ebay offering. Standing by Riley

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

If it is being presented for sale with no logbooks and no detail of the previous registration (which would be recorded in the logbooks)... DANGER Nunans... DANGER!

 

Be aware that just one of the requirements for re-registration will be inspection of the log books by an L2. No log books. Don't go any further. Re-registration of an aircraft with no log books is very problematic and there's a risk that it may not be possible.

 

Keep in mind that a new skin may be hiding a multitude of issues with the structure of the aircraft! Corrosion, fatigue, cracking, bodgy repairs.

 

Refer to the Aircraft Condition Report proforma in the RAA Technical Manual. That is required to be completed by a L2 and submitted as part of the transfer / registration. Note that while it assesses "readily assessable" condition, it is not an "airworthy". If you can see and inspect the log books and they look ok, then the next step would be to pay an L2 of your choice to perform an inspection and complete the ACR. If not ok, then don't buy. If it is ok, you may want to go the extra step of obtaining a detailed condition report that would declare the craft airworthy or otherwise. Remember that the risk is all yours and you are betting your life on the outcome! While it is exciting to buy an aircraft, it needs to be approached dispassionately. The more you get emotionally involved with the transaction, the more likely you will overlook significant deficiencies and / or risks.

 

From a financial perspective, it is like buying a house or a car. A significant investment. It deserves the same prudence in determining the safety of that investment. From the perspective that it is an aircraft, even more prudence is required for discovering the actual airworthiness of the aircraft. If a wing falls off, you cannot just roll over to the side of the road and call a tow truck!

 

If the owner is well enough to commission the son in law to sell the aircraft, then s/he could have briefed the son-in-law about where the logs are and that they would be necessary to show a prospective buyer. In any case, the owner will have to sign the transfer unless the son-in-law has a legal power of attorney.

 

Have you inspected the aircraft? Don't buy sight-unseen. Have you had an L2 inspect the aircraft? Don't buy without getting a professional assessment.

 

As said by Kenchhidu, read the Sharks in Aviation thread. I've linked it for ease of finding it.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

IMHO, anyone who buys an aircraft on eBay, for the purpose of flying it, needs their head read! If you are buying it as a garden ornament, fine.

 

The eBay sale process obviates all the appropriate verification and prudent condition verification processes. Thus you could not be blamed for thinking that an aircraft seller who uses eBay to sell it has something to hide that would be discovered in the more conventional process.

 

There's been other threads here about on-line sales of aircraft, by scammers, who don't even own or have possession of the aircraft.

 

eBay may be great for other things, but it is not an appropriate means of purchasing an aircraft.

 

 

[skyfox1]

Hi David l disagree l have purchased four aircraft on ebay and sold two myself the two aircraft l currently fly are from ebay l have rebuilt all of them if you are looking for one to rebuild its a good place to look .

 

cheers Geoff

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The devil is always in the detail, with the way that Thrusters are made its pretty easy to rebuild it from a box of bits. You should probably want to have a look @ the shoe box full of receipts and check the workmanship on any of the structure.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Hi David l disagree l have purchased four aircraft on ebay and sold two myself the two aircraft l currently fly are from ebay l have rebuilt all of them if you are looking for one to rebuild its a good place to look .cheers Geoff

I agree, I have picked up some awesome bargains from ebay over the years. With this sort of sale where the owner is too ill to participate and you are dealing with the relatives, details are always sketchy. Ebay wont hold you to an auction agreement if the seller fails to disclose significant variation from the auction details.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Interesting. Perhaps Skyfox1 and Fly_Tornado could elucidate what you would expect to be disclosed in the "auction details", that you believe would be able to reverse the sale and under what conditions? What is your risk assessment process together with the level of risk you were / are prepared to accept? What qualified assistance did you engage, on which to base your risk assessments?

 

Personally, I would not want to be relying on a chance of reversing a contract and obtaining a refund based on arguing misdescribed goods, where an aircraft was concerned. If the detail in the "auction" was "sketchy", I think you'd have buckley's. I would be wanting to obtain my choice of independent third party assurance as to condition before purchase.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

talking about that T300 on ebay, the seller main claim about the plane is that its been refurbished, so the seller should be able to produce receipts for parts that have been replaced. you should be able to get photos of the planes prior to the auction ending to verify the parts are in the plane. email is a wonderful thing.

 

 

[terryc]

Looking at the pictures on ebay and being a thruster owner I have picked some glaring mister meaners that would need to be remedied before you could consider flying the thing. It would be my opinion and only my opinion that this aircraft is not airworthy and requires a complete going over bolt by bolt and hole by hole and insert by insert by someone very familiar with thrusters. Also this is a certified aircraft so no modification allowed. A lot of work to be done I think. In the pictures I didn't see a serial number, without it you can't register it. I don't say don't buy it but the price would need to reflect what you are buying.

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Eastmeg2Are you aware of some dodgy facts regarding either the Thruster or the vendor in this ebay auction that the rest of us should know about or are you simply confirming the adage of "if it's too good to be true, it usually is"? I do agree, descriptions of "almost xx hours on engine and "around xx hrs on airframe" in the ad doesn't indicate that a logbook is available or being referred to however, your post might be unfairly off-putting to a potential bidder if not justifiable. Please advise if you have any info which indicates a potential 'scam' in this ebay offering. Standing by Riley

Hi Riley,

 

I have no knowledge of the specific Thruster you're referring too. I've not even seen the eBay add.

 

What gets my alarm bells ringing on this one is that there may be no log books or history and it's being sold by someone with no aviation background allegedly on behalf of the alleged owner. I'd at least want to meet the owner, verify their ID, RAAus membership details (even if lapsed) and X-Check with RAAus their membership and aircraft rego before proceeding any further.

 

Even if you can't put your hands on actual registration papers (current or lapsed), as Terry mentioned, a serial number may give you a lead to follow with either the TOSG or RAAus. If the serial number is missing there is no way I would consider purchasing it except perhaps for garden furniture as David mentioned.

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[skyfox1]

Interesting. Perhaps Skyfox1 and Fly_Tornado could elucidate what you would expect to be disclosed in the "auction details", that you believe would be able to reverse the sale and under what conditions? What is your risk assessment process together with the level of risk you were / are prepared to accept? What qualified assistance did you engage, on which to base your risk assessments?Personally, I would not want to be relying on a chance of reversing a contract and obtaining a refund based on arguing misdescribed goods, where an aircraft was concerned. If the detail in the "auction" was "sketchy", I think you'd have buckley's. I would be wanting to obtain my choice of independent third party assurance as to condition before purchase.

David l get as much information as l can throught ebay by photos and phone calls l bid the amount l think that the aircraft is worth by that information ,after the sale when its time to go and pick it up if it is not what was discribed

 

l will not go through with the sale no money changes hands until l see it its just another type of media to which to sell an item no differant than looking throught the classifieds.

 

l only buy the type that l am familar with and know what to look for, so far l have got some great aircraft .

 

my skyfox cost me $17000.00 l spent $3200 on it to get it back to flying condition now its got hours of flight time in front of it .

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...,after the sale when its time to go and pick it up if it is not what was discribedl will not go through with the sale no money changes hands until l see it

You inspect "after the sale". A winning bidder on eBay has formed a "contract of sale" with the seller. The only way out of that is if the goods really are significantly different to what was described in the material on eBay. If you find that it does mostly meet that description, but you are still unhappy with the condition, you are still on the hook. Even though you have not parted with any money, the seller would be within their rights to sue you for it.

 

its just another type of media to which to sell an item no differant than looking throught the classifieds.....

Well actually it is quite different. When you look through the classifieds, you may enquire or make conditional offers, but the contract of sale is not formed until you are satisfied and say I'll buy it on these terms. On eBay, the contract of sale is formed when you are declared the winning bidder.

Clearly the process has worked for you, so far, but I see potential difficulties that you have been lucky enough not to encounter.

 

 

[Kenchhidu]

The description says "ready to fly" so any defect that makes it un-airworthy would void the sale contract. The auctions finished so it's up to the buyer now.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

The description says "ready to fly" so any defect that makes it un-airworthy would void the sale contract. The auctions finished so it's up to the buyer now.

Sorry, but "ready to fly" does not mean "airworthy". Even the RAA ACR when completed without comment does not mean "airworthy".

"ready to fly" does not even guarantee the capability to fly. It certainly does not indicate "safe to fly". It, for instance, could be a completed home build that when subsequently tested could be found to not fly at all, but it was "ready to fly" in terms that the construction was complete.

 

This is how people get bitten. By misinterpreting the terms of a contract to be what they want it to mean, rather than what it actually means, or more to the point what is does not mean.

 

 

[Guest nunans]

Thanks for all the info, I didn't buy the aircraft this time but for $8400 I wouldn't be expecting it to be airworthy or safe to fly or fully refurbished or even complete for that matter.

 

For that money if it came with a 582 that was in tolerance and an airframe with new skins that were done properly then you fix the rest when you take possession i guess and fly it when you believe it's airworthy..

 

The main thing i was looking for was to find out what the minimum information the aircraft had to come with to make it eventually flyable, which sounds like a serial number.

 

 

[skyfox1]

You inspect "after the sale". A winning bidder on eBay has formed a "contract of sale" with the seller. The only way out of that is if the goods really are significantly different to what was described in the material on eBay. If you find that it does mostly meet that description, but you are still unhappy with the condition, you are still on the hook. Even though you have not parted with any money, the seller would be within their rights to sue you for it.=============================================================

 

If that is the case then l would renegotiate the price which has happened then both parties are happy so far l have got some great deals .