Engine Failure In The Turn!

[farri]

The recent accident into lake Jindabyne has prompted me to start this thread!!!

 

I find it hard to accept that a crash should occur, simply because of engine failure in the turn, be it a level, climbing or descending turn and I also find it hard to accept that Density Height/ Density Altitude, ( which ever you prefer ), should play a part in an accident.

 

Though I accept that not all aircraft perform equally and that some perform better than others, "All aircraft obey the same laws of Physics"!

 

I believe an aircraft can only cease to fly, because of mechanical/airframe failure or pilot error, therefore, a crash is not an inevitable result of an engine failure in the turn!!!

 

Frank.

 

 

[turboplanner]

x

 

 

[farri]

X

 

 

[Methusala]

FLY THE AEROPLANE!!!! Don.

 

 

[blueshed]

Absolutely Don, and you are probably going to have to touch down at some stage in the not to distant future!

 

Was the recent accident caused from engine failure in the turn?

 

 

[Bubbleboy]

Correct me if im wrong but I believe it was said in this particular accident that it was low level, high bank and maybe the prospective buyer was flying? No one will ever know but there lies 3 little things that when the fan stops, can cause things to turn to custard real quick. Its like I was taught not to turn back with an engine failure on take off at low altitude. I guess its the wrong place at the wrong time scenario. Maybe with a bit more height, it would have been a whole different ending. If only...if only....

 

 

[av8vfr]

Just going off the "the engine stalled when in a tight banked turn" comment from the Jindabyne thread, every pilot knows that increased angle of bank = increased angle of attack for level flight.

 

Ssoooo a high alpha turn with a sudden loss of power requires IMMEDIATE response to the AoA or wing stall.....

 

But this is all in hindsight..

 

 

[Spin]

I think you may have hit on an important point there, metalman, high thrust line pushers as many amphibians are, are known to have reasonably large trim changes with power changes. They also pitch nose up with power reduction, so an engine cutting on you, with the nose already high, in a bank could quite quickly put you in a bad place!

 

Back to the original question, I believe the bank doesn't change things much, you still need to get the nose down pronto - also unless there was a good reason to continue the turn, I'd roll wings level to improve glide performance. Frank?

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I get the feeling that the engine failure training is lacking something if 2 experienced pilots flying a seaplane over water can't land it safely.

 

 

[Bandit12]

Back to the original question, I believe the bank doesn't change things much, you still need to get the nose down pronto - also unless there was a good reason to continue the turn, I'd roll wings level to improve glide performance. Frank?

Rolling also increases angle of attack for the lower wing (over the outboard area anyway), if already close to the edge it could cause a stall and wing drop. I would imagine that unloading the aircraft would be necessary before trying to use ailerons, just like is taught in aerobatics and unusual attitudes recovery. You can not stall/spin in zero G, but it is easy to see how with low speed, high angle of attack and bank on, there might not have been enough altitude to recover regardless of skill or speed of taking action.

 

With a lot of bank on, there is precious little lift to spare without power to maintain the height.

 

 

[farri]

First and foremost!..... The lower the turn the least amount of time there is to react, before impact, therefore, engine failure must be in the forefront of the mind, before the turn is commenced, so that a sucessful landing can follow if the engine should stop! ...Once into the turn, it may be to late and you may be commited to take what comes!

 

Some would say, " We all know that"!.... I say " Not so"!....It never ceases to amaze me, how many pilots don`t consider engine failure as their top priority, simply due to the fancy aircraft they fly!

 

If the bank is done correctly, the bank angle shouldn`t change anything much at all!..... The aircraft is flying isn`t it?.....It`s what the pilot does, or doesn`t do, before the turn and in the next instant after the engine stops, that makes the difference!!!

 

Frank.

 

 

[farri]

I get the feeling that the engine failure training is lacking something if 2 experienced pilots flying a seaplane over water can't land it safely.

I don`t know what others teach but I taught engine failure in the turns! The most critical being, the tight climbing turns, however, I believe, no amount of training will be of much use if the pilot doesn`t apply it.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Mazda]

I have had the engine go quiet in a 60 degree turn, I set it up in a wings level glide and did checks. Fortunately for me the engine restarted, the problem was a faulty fuel cap.

 

I would not like to speculate on what happened over Lake Jindabyne, I wasn't there, and comments made in hindsight won't bring them back.

 

 

[blueshed]

Bandit12, Has hit the nail on the head!

 

Zero G = No Stall! So zero the G roll wings level!

 

Has anyone watched the "Turn Smart" video put together by Wayne Handley? This is a great information! I review it regularly. If we can understand what he is sharing with us, we will all be better off!

 

 

[Spin]

I think we need to define what sort of turn we are talking about before prescribing a definite course of action. If we are in a steep turn a la Mazda, then there is a definite need to unload and at least decrease the bank angle, if not roll level. I had a more normal turn, eg 30 degree bank in the circuit in mind (eg turn onto crosswind), in which case I stand by my action of lowering the nose - which is going to unload the wings anyway to some extent. There is no point in prescribing wings level if the continued turn is going to take you away from an obstacle or toward your forced landing option - also your actions are going to be very different at 100' compared to 500'. As the man said; "fly it until the last piece stops moving" which to me recognises that we operate in a dynamic environment which requires ongoing decision making and reacting to changes around you. One size fits all, just doesn't cut it.

 

 

[rgmwa]

Has anyone watched the "Turn Smart" video put together by Wayne Handley? This is a great information! I review it regularly. If we can understand what he is sharing with us, we will all be better off!

Just found it. Very informative video, and I will admit that his first few questions had me thinking a bit too long for comfort. Thanks for the tip.

 

rgmwa

 

 

[Ultralights]

Gliders dont crash when they turn, and neither does Bob Hoover doing his aerobatic routine in a medium twin, with 2 dead engines!

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Gliders dont crash when they turn, and neither does Bob Hoover doing his aerobatic routine in a medium twin, with 2 dead engines!

But that is using potential energy and inertia. In an engine failure scenario, you must rapidly transition from powered flight to using, first the inertia, and then the potential energy.

In a steep climb, in an ultralight, inertia isn't going to take you far when the noise stops, so you need to get the nose down quite quickly to maintain airspeed and thus keep the wing flying while you transition to glide.

 

 

[farri]

I`d like to make it clear that my intention was not,is not, to analyse the accident into Lake Jyndabine!

 

My intention is to create discussion and awareness on the subject!

 

Frank.

 

 

[blueshed]

Thanks for putting up the link Dex,

 

one day I shall learn how to do that!!!!!!!!

 

 

[Spin]

Thanks Blueshed, rgmwa and Destiny - excellent video, so much easier to understand by watching an actual aircraft roll over the top etc. I count myself very fortunate to have had an ex military instructor and access to a C150 Aerobat during my initial training, I was positively encouraged to wring it out and to feel what could happen if I overcooked things in a skidding or slipping turn. Likewise to have learnt in a time and place where spinning was part of the syllabus.

 

 

[facthunter]

If that seems foreign and new to you, please revisit it and similar treatment of this topic until it makes complete sense . Just because you don't fly Ag planes doesn't mean it is not of benefit. Understanding the principles will enable you to have control and maintain or regain it if things aren't normal. You could hit the wake turbulence of an aircraft or a severe gust, or just be distracted in a turn. If you wish to learn outside the normal envelope do it in a strong plane with a qualified instructor. Good stuff that used to be part of normal training. Nev

 

 

[winsor68]

Its not the bank angle as such but the load the bank angle places on the wing... Stall speed increases with G force... ? Thus... unload... and be sure the wing is flying again before before moving the controls...?

 

 

[farri]

To me! Setting up the turn ( maneouvre ) correctly, with the correct airspeed for the turn and angle of bank, is the begining of the answer to recovery from engine failure in the turn!!!

 

The airspeed should be sufficient for the particular turn so as to allow for wind shear as well as engine failure!

 

If the turn is done correctly,unintentional stalls shouldn`t occure, in the first place!!!

 

Flying the aircraft= Airspeed!!!

 

And of course! There always has to be somewhere to land!!!

 

Frank.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I found this video which shows how unstable a plane gets in an extended stall. Catched it the first 2 times and then it really drops