Engine Failure In The Turn!

[motzartmerv]

Good thread, thanx Frank...

 

If you have a licence and have never practiced stalls in a turn, grab your instructor and ask him/her to brief you on it and then go and practice some.

 

The difference with and without power is something that shocks most people, as does the inside wing dropping in a descending turn.

 

Failing this, limit bank angles in the cct to 20 deg's for climbing and 30 degs for descending turns, and remember the golden RULE, don't turn below 500 feet.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Wise words Motz, I see 60 degree turns all the time in the Moorabbin Training area and two in the past couple of years have headed towards the Promised Land but were lucky enough to dodge the bullet. It's not good enough having a rough idea of the theory, or even having practised it a couple of years ago. When the wing drops, you have to act instinctively, immediately without thinking.

 

 

[facthunter]

Three things to remember. Don't pick up a dropped wing with aileron, and unload the wing (forward stick) and it will no longer be stalled, and don't skid in turns. One thing mentioned in the vid was leaving power on when the nose is pointing straight down. I don't believe in that, as the speed will increase very rapidly when the plane is vertical, even without power. In theory the power would be beneficial, but in practice unless you are really a hot shot, you would end up faster than you need optimally I usually recommend power be applied when off the vertical by about 40 degrees, when you are pulling out of the dive.. Excess vertical descent rate will require more height to recover. Power is required to overcome the extra drag (induced) by the demand for extra lift from the wings during the pullout. The trick is to avoid a subsequent stall at well above normal stall speed (dynamic) yet recover with minimum height loss. Nev.

 

 

[farri]

Thanx to you also, for your contribution, Motz!......Surely, Discussion creating awarenes, must have some positive effect!!!

 

Frank.

 

 

[eightyknots]

....It never ceases to amaze me, how many pilots don`t consider engine failure as their top priority....

I just saw this clip on another thread. Even though it looks very impressive and demonstrates the aircraft's capability really well, was a potential engine failure at the end of the runway considered?

 

 

 

[Piet Fil]

Dex and FT, Thanks for the two video clips, some excellent info in them. Really highlights the balancing of turns and releasing of back pressure. As well as height is life. Thanks for the thread everyone.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yea chief, i picked up on that too. I didn't want to add confusion, the knowledge benefits from these instructional videos are excellent, providing guys are able to apply it to aircraft and situations they fly in, and of course, discuss it with their instructors. Anything that provokes thought on the subject is good stuff in my book.

 

 

[djpacro]

For info, EAA is running a webinar on Emergency Maneuver Training – Controlling Your Airplane during a Crisis

 

Presenter: Rich Stowell, Master CFI-Aerobatics

 

Host: Charlie Becker

 

Friday July 15th at 10 am.

 

Review the differences between spirals, stalls, and spins, as well as how to avoid wake turbulence. Learn the keys to maximizing the probability of surviving a forced landing and coping with control failures, as well as the critical sequence of events needed to recover from various unusual attitudes.

 

 

[Spin]

cficare - " its interesting.....have a (simulated) engine failure a couple of hundred feet in the air...student pushes negitive 'g's .....there is nothing (energy) to work with when u reach the earth.............................................................. "

 

Bit cryptic for me, or maybe I'm being dense; but do you want to expand on how that relates to an engine failure in a turn, ie. what should they be doing?

 

 

[winsor68]

Spin... it seems to me that there is a lot of these sort of stall/crash accidents and often they involve high hour pilots... it seems to me that there is something in this. I have heard that sailplane pilots found that during cable breaks aircraft were being stalled because the pilots didn't allow enough time for the airspeed to build before commencing a turn... I have wondered whether there is the possibility that taken to extremes some aircraft (and airfoils especially) could perhaps have the propensity to stall in negative G as well? Could this happen? To me it may explain why some experienced pilots despite all probability in relation to their experience and training crash? I mean negative G is not included in anyone's training generally is it?

 

Go ahead and tell me I am crazy.... Was just an idea...

 

 

[motzartmerv]

I think that what CFI was alluding to is that pushing a neggy at low altitude, in light aircraft would leave insufficient room (height) left to recover. Unloading the wing is one thing, pushing a neggy is going to loose you a tonne of height, and remember, its already stalled and loosing height.

 

The training we all receive works. (generally)

 

1. Relax back pressure (learn the stall stick position)

 

2. Prevent yaw with opposite rudder

 

3. Stay off the ailerons until your flying again.

 

If you follow the basic rules of airmanship and limit bank angles while low to the ground, and don't do any turns below 500 feet, an engine failure in a turn doesn't need to end in tragedy, but more importantly, won't require extreme flying skills to prevent the tragedy.

 

 

[facthunter]

As stated negative "G" is not the prime aim. Unload the wing reduces induced drag. ( The major component). If you are still climbing, (zero "G" parabolic trajectory) you will gain height at the expense of airspeed. (replace kinetic energy with potential energy) The situation becomes complex here because you need to maintain enough airsped to keep control, at all times. UNDER THESE CIRCUMSTANCES there may be a case to achieve a downwards trajectory before the speed decays too much, and a bit of negative "G" could be justified. This sort of situation is most likely in a fast clean aeroplane, which we don't have a lot of. Nev

 

 

[farri]

Back to engine failure in the turn, in the RAA types of aircraft we mainly fly,!..... High drag, Low momentum, with a very small airspeed range!!!

 

The engine stops in the turn and the first thing that happens is that the thrust is gone, therefore, imediately, the drag increases, causing the aircraft to loose airspeed.

 

Rolling out of the turn, using aileron, increases the angle of attack and the drag on the lower wing, decreasing the airspeed furthur!.....This can cause the low wing to exceed the critical angle of attack, then stall and cause the aircraft to spin!

 

Once in the spin, there is very little or no chance at all of recovery, if, insuficient height or the inability of the pilot, in spin recovery!!!

 

Frank.

 

 

[Exadios]

Back to engine failure in the turn, in the RAA types of aircraft we mainly fly,!..... High drag, Low momentum, with a very small airspeed range!!!The engine stops in the turn and the first thing that happens is that the thrust is gone, therefore, imediately, the drag increases, causing the aircraft to loose airspeed.

 

Rolling out of the turn, using aileron, increases the angle of attack and the drag on the lower wing, decreasing the airspeed furthur!.....This can cause the low wing to exceed the critical angle of attack, then stall and cause the aircraft to spin!

 

Once in the spin, there is very little or no chance at all of recovery, if, insuficient height or the inability of the pilot, in spin recovery!!!

 

Frank.

Stick forward immediately and be prepared to use the rudder aggressively.

 

Learning how to thermal is good practice for engine failures in a turn. When thermaling the aircraft is flying at minimum sink speed, which is a couple of knots greater than stall, and cranked over at 45 to 50 degrees, so it teaches the pilot how to keep the plane flying (and how to get it flying again if necessary).

 

 

[Mazda]

The problem with forums is that people can interpret the words here in so many ways, and some of the posts could unintentionally cause confusion.

 

If you are a student, go up with your instructor at height and practise. If you are licensed you can do the same, just do it at height.

 

I don't really understand the big push on here for zero G/negative G, this is just talking about an engine failure in a turn, and if that is a level normal or steep turn it is just a matter of setting best glide speed. Rolling wings level can reduce the rate of descent, but the reason I did it when it happened to me was because I thought the turn might have caused the problem (rolled into the turn, the engine stopped, so I rolled out). It is just a turn. In your training do you go to zero G when rolling out of a normal turn?

 

If you have cruise speed you may wish to stay level, or convert speed to height on the way to getting your glide speed, rather than pushing closer to the ground and gaining speed. When you roll wings level with aileron from a gliding turn does the aircraft enter a spin? No? Then why would it do so after the engine has failed? Just go to best glide speed and fly it as you normally would.

 

When climbing out after take off of course speed is the issue and once again it is a matter of getting the glide speed, but in this case it is lowering the nose. And for those who are keen on 'beat up' style holding it down then heaving the nose up, the steeper the climb out, the more you have to push over to get that speed.

 

Also be careful with being 'aggressive' with rudder, just use rudder as required. I remember someone being 'aggressive' with rudder during a wing drop and he put us into an unintentional spin then froze.

 

One more thing, engines don't like going negative either, unless designed for that purpose. Although if it is has seized that is the least of your concerns.

 

Now I have put too many words here too! Just go up with your instructor and fly.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...The engine stops in the turn and the first thing that happens is that the thrust is gone, therefore, imediately, the drag increases, causing the aircraft to loose airspeed....

While it may seem like the drag increases, if you were flying at constant speed in a horizontal turn, the drag equalled thrust. The fact that drag is now the only force acting in line with the longitudinal axis, is what causes the deceleration. Instantaneously, the drag remains unchanged.

If it is a climbing turn, then there is also a gravitational component contributing to the deceleration.

 

While this is the "immediate" effect, subsequent changes in attitude, AoA or control surfaces can increase drag. Depending on the thrust line of the specific aircraft, changes in thrust may cause changes in attitude, which would feed back into a change in drag, but whether it increases or decreases from this stimulus depends on the thrust line relationship to the centre of drag.

 

Sorry, Frank. I'm being pedantic. It does not change the outcome.

 

 

[Exadios]

The problem with forums is that people can interpret the words here in so many ways, and some of the posts could unintentionally cause confusion.If you are a student, go up with your instructor at height and practise. If you are licensed you can do the same, just do it at height.

 

I don't really understand the big push on here for zero G/negative G, this is just talking about an engine failure in a turn, and if that is a level normal or steep turn it is just a matter of setting best glide speed. Rolling wings level can reduce the rate of descent, but the reason I did it when it happened to me was because I thought the turn might have caused the problem (rolled into the turn, the engine stopped, so I rolled out). It is just a turn. In your training do you go to zero G when rolling out of a normal turn?

 

If you have cruise speed you may wish to stay level, or convert speed to height on the way to getting your glide speed, rather than pushing closer to the ground and gaining speed. When you roll wings level with aileron from a gliding turn does the aircraft enter a spin? No? Then why would it do so after the engine has failed? Just go to best glide speed and fly it as you normally would.

 

When climbing out after take off of course speed is the issue and once again it is a matter of getting the glide speed, but in this case it is lowering the nose. And for those who are keen on 'beat up' style holding it down then heaving the nose up, the steeper the climb out, the more you have to push over to get that speed.

 

Also be careful with being 'aggressive' with rudder, just use rudder as required. I remember someone being 'aggressive' with rudder during a wing drop and he put us into an unintentional spin then froze.

 

One more thing, engines don't like going negative either, unless designed for that purpose. Although if it is has seized that is the least of your concerns.

 

Now I have put too many words here too! Just go up with your instructor and fly.

Zero G is not necessary. Approximately one G is sufficient.

 

If you went into a spin after using the rudder then the wrong pedal was kicked. This is inappropiate use of rudder. I imaging the reason the student froze in a spin is because he or she had not received the appropiate training.

 

My point is that to recover from these sort of problems needs training and constant practise which thermaling will give you. Unfortunately the RAA and GA syllabi do not cover these areas and most pilots do not get the practise required.

 

 

[farri]

David, note that I havn`t mentioned the type or angle of bank of the turn!

 

Instantaneously, at the precise moment of the loss of thrust, what you say may be correct, but from that moment, the aircraft will decelerate and start to sink and drag will increase!

 

It`s what happens next that is of most importance!!!

 

Frank.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

David, note that I havn`t mentioned the type or angle of bank of the turn!Instantaneously, at the precise moment of the loss of thrust, what you say may be correct, but from that moment, the aircraft will decelerate and start to sink and drag will increase!

 

It`s what happens next that is of most importance!!!

 

Frank.

Fair enough. Yes, once it begins to sink, without a change of attitude, the effective AoA increases, leading to increased drag :-)

 

 

[Mazda]

Not so Exadios. The 'student' was a commercial pilot doing an instructor rating, and he had already undergone spin training. He used the correct rudder, but he used too much of it. He had trained in types that required full use of rudder, but this type required finesse, not aggression.

 

The gliders I have flown needed firm use of the rudder but it is not the case in all aircraft types.

 

 

[Exadios]

Not so Exadios. The 'student' was a commercial pilot doing an instructor rating, and he had already undergone spin training. He used the correct rudder, but he used too much of it. He had trained in types that required full use of rudder, but this type required finesse, not aggression.The gliders I have flown needed firm use of the rudder but it is not the case in all aircraft types.

I agree. As I say, it needs constant practise.

 

 

[farri]

Fair enough. Yes, once it begins to sink, without a change of attitude, the effective AoA increases, leading to increased drag :-)

Correct!!!

 

Frank

 

 

[facthunter]

Mazda, a usually agree with what you say, but there are some U/L's ( the type that Farri refers to) where the drag is so high that an engine out needs quick and very positive action. A heavy Thruster climbs turns glides cruises at almost the same speed. ( a bit over 50 knots).If you get it a bit slow it doesn't stall or fall out of the sky immediately, but it just won't do anything. . The thrust is just overcoming the drag and there is a lot of drag.... and not much weight ( relatively)

 

A power failure in a steep turn, does require instant "unloading" of the wings and the establishment of a dive quickly, sufficiently steep to maintain/attain a safe airspeed and will by definition have a quite high descent rate, especially if you have lost speed and have to regain it, for control and to do a flare to land

 

A technam echo with full flap exhibits similar speed decay with power reduction, If you don't lower the nose quickly, but I can't think of any GA plane I have flown that behaves quite like a Thruster. Even a C-182 at full load and full flap. ( Like they used to allow), put in a steep turn, is nothing like the same. Nev

 

 

[farri]

When you roll wings level with aileron from a gliding turn does the aircraft enter a spin? No? Then why would it do so after the engine has failed? Just go to best glide speed and fly it as you normally would.

Does the aircraft enter a spin when rolling the wings level from a gliding turn?... If done correctly,of course not, therefore, a descending turn, done correctly, should never, ever, result in a spin, simply because the engine fails!... The question then remains!.... " Why is it occuring?"

 

Most, if not all of the 95/10, 25, 55, and also the 19 catagory, are high drag low momentum, with a very small airspeed margin to fly with, type of aircraft!

 

Regardles of the type of turn or angle of bank, they all loose airspeed extremely quickly when the engine stops! It only requires a very short period of pilot confusion and/or lack of accurate response, to reach stall speed!...... Immediate and accurate response is required!!!

 

I commence all my turns, with sufficient airspeed to be able to roll wings level, if required!

 

In climbing turns in the Drifter,I preffer to hold the aircraft in the turn while lowering the nose and allowing the airspeed to increase, before, rolling the wings level and setting up best glide speed!

 

Frank.