Mid-Air Collision - Two very lucky pilots

[youngster]

http://airpigz.com/blog/2011/7/11/amazing-video-of-the-skyraider-and-p-51-collision-at-duxford.html

[fly_tornado]

that's no good. another mustang gone

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Wow. 2 very tough aircraft, and 2 very lucky pilots. Reckon the skyraider pilot owes the P51 guy a beer..;)

 

 

[winsor68]

WoW! was my reaction too!

 

 

[winsor68]

I reckon Skyraider won! You could see the events unfolding for a second before it ate the P51 for lunch...

 

P.S. That was "Big Beautiful Doll"... Very sad... but very fortuntate.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

A very educational piece of film. Thanks for posting. A salient lesson on what can happen when separation fails.

 

I'm glad both pilots were ok.

 

So how do we think it happened? (mechanics, not blame)

 

If you stop the video just at contact, the wing of the Skyraider contacted the rear fuselage of the P51 just forward of the empennage. This would suggest that the Skyraider was in fact describing a tighter arc, but displaced down-field, so that the pilot should have been able to maintain visual on the P51 throughout the break and turn. It is, however quite hard to judge relative positions of the aircraft and their actual trajectory from a 2D video.

 

Just before the contact, the Skyraider decreases the angle of bank, so maybe the pilot had lost visual on the P51 and decreased bank to re-establish visual, only to get an eyeful when it was too late to avoid the collision?

 

I've now found this alleged eyewitness account on another forum, which seems to follow the same thought, but also suggests an alternate hypothesis.

 

Here's a picture of the Skyraider, after it landed.

 

 

[facthunter]

You MUST be sure where the other aircraft are. These two people are very lucky to be around. .Formation flying is not a thing to take lightly. Nev

 

 

[Guest rocketdriver]

FWIW, it looks to me like another multifactorial accident .... I thought the formation break up was a little unconventional in that you would normally , for a left hand circuit, do the fly past in echelon right and then the planes peal off to the left, leader first with a count of, say 5 between each. As the aircraft pull up and pull G they might also reduce power as the idea is to use the drag / climb energy to slow down and arrive turning downwind at circuit height. The count of 5 with the rest of the formation tavelling at flypast speed gives you clearance between each of the aircraft and they all remain above the nose at all times making spacing easy to achieve with small alterations of track by the following aircraft.

 

In this case, the leader was the central aircraft and he broke upwards and then left, probably (definately) slowing as he did so. His left turn looked to be quite shallow and he didn't seem to have completed a nice square turn .... When the left most aircraft then broke upwards, because he started behind the leader, there was not as much horizontal separation as usual which was exacerbated by the mustang's shallow turn carrying it somewhat along the flypast track instead of at right angles to it. (maybe he was making clearance for himself in a busy circuit?) When the skyraider pulled up he seemed to do so quite steeply ... perhaps normal for this aircraft because of its high mass? ... and rolled into quite a steep turn too. I think he probably lost sight of the mustang behind his nose during the early part of the manoevre and it might in fact have been invisible to him until impact ........ That big round engine blocks a very wide downwards view (from the pilots viewpoint) .....

 

I've been there, all except the impact bit, and in slightly different circumstances .... we were practising formation flying at height ..... and it is scary I can tell you. You know the other guy is out there somewhere close and all you can do get on the radio and hope you are not on intersecting flight paths ....

 

Just my thoughts....

 

Cheers RD

 

 

[Guest rocketdriver]

And on another tack, re the 'chute. In WW2 it was said you had to be out of the plane by 1000 ft or the chute would not have time to open properly. My Dad (a RAF pilot) jumped out of a burning Lancaster at about 800 ft and broke his ankle on landing ...... Just watching the mustang bail out, wasn't it LOW! ...... .

 

RD

 

 

[Guest extralite]

Hi Rocketdriver. Good point you make however normally both the time spacing and the G pulled in the turn is pre-briefed. A typical pre-briefed circuit entry may be the leader breaks into the circuit with a 3g 180 degree turn, and then each formation member follows at 5 second intervals with a 3 g break, keeping the previous aircraft in site and adjusting the g later in the turn to ensure correct circuit spacing. It appears in this case that number 2 initially pulled much harder into the turn then number 1, consequently lost visual under the nose and bang.

 

It is hard to direct blame unless one knows all the facts. In the video it certainly appears at first like number 2 was at fault for losing visual on the lead. However, perhaps the formation was not briefed properly on the G required into the pitch, perhaps number 1 pulled less G than was briefed and so number 2 lost visual when he pulled the right G and briefly looked down at the G meter to check he was pitching in at the right G, perhaps the differing interia of different types was a factor in the different turn radius. I am sure some would say it is always the responsibility to keep visual on the previous aircraft in the formation, but from experience i have seen how quickly it can all go pear shaped if something unbriefed happens. A quick look down to check the G meter, look up and "oh where has he gone"....then a few seconds wondering what to do and its all over. Anyway, lucky for the two drivers.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Loss of visual on your lead is an immediate cause for a code word break-off of the formation, where everyone takes their pre-briefed escape routes. The pre-briefing has to include not only what will be flown, but the escape route for each aircraft in every formation configuration.

 

That said. Formation flying is a higher risk activity.

 

As I'm finding, there's a lot of work and effort goes into making it look easy.

 

 

[Guest extralite]

True..but have never heard of a lost contact being briefed or called in the circuit with both on the pitch in a 3 ship with number 2 losing contact. Can you imagine the break out procdure for that?

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

True..but have never heard of a lost contact being briefed or called in the circuit with both on the pitch in a 3 ship with number 2 losing contact. Can you imagine the break out procdure for that?

Well I can imagine a couple of scenarios, but it depends on what they were supposed to do in the first place. I don't imagine they were supposed to change places during a turn. If the Skyraider was trying to turn inside the P51, loss of visual was a guarantee with a climbing turn, so you have to assume he banked too hard and either didn't notice that he lost visual (while checking instruments) or made a conscious decision to continue and try to regain visual.

I hope the real story gets published, as it will be very instructive.

 

 

[Guest rocketdriver]

As I'm finding, there's a lot of work and effort goes into making it look easy.

Yep ... either you are in formation or you are not ... and the difference is really very small .....

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Actually the pilot did a fine job of getting out. He got rid of the aircrafts'canopy pretty much straight away, then stayed with it until it dropped it's nose. The chute looks like a 26 Ft Lopo (low porosity reserve chute). They are designed to open right now, and generally do. He was probabily under canopy by 300 feet which is fine. If anything he took a bit of time getting it out, but it never hurts to make sure you are tugging on the right piece. There's no future in pulling the ripcord and hitting your hand on the ground!.........Around 1970 or so there was a P-51 from Bankstown that went in out by Richmond west of Sydney. He also got rid of the canopy, but he didn't manage to get out in time. It dug a very impressive hole after going in at full power. The intact unbroken canopy was found nearby..............................................................................Old skydiver Maj....

 

 

[fly_tornado]

so has anyone here had to use a chute? I imagine its a spooky experience watching your plane crash and you not in it

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I've not had occassion to bail out of anything, but I have ridden that type of reserve a couple of times during my skydiving days. They open very quick and often very hard depending on what speed your doing at the time. It's always a nice hard though !...

 

I also got a couple of rides in the back seat of the Mirage 111D (Dual) during my Air Force days.You certainly know your in potential 'escape' mode when they strap you to one of those 'bang' seats, and point the handles out to you one more time ...just in case you've forgotten !!........................................................................................Maj...

 

 

[Suitman]

so has anyone here had to use a chute? I imagine its a spooky experience watching your plane crash and you not in it

I use mine quite a lot. (Sorry I couldn't resist!)

 

 

[Scottw]

have seen video of this incident a number of times and made a few observations and no. 1 is that the Mustang pilot did a great job of getting out of the situation and the Skyraider pilot did a great job getting back on the ground. A testament to the strength of the plane and pilot skill and all round not a pretty incident. Now granted I'm a student pilot but I know a number of guys who fly Warbirds regularly and have been in a number of Warbird formation flights. And as stated these are just observations, no blame to any particular party and as they say hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

I noted that when the Mustang pulled away he did not continue/complete is left hand turn. In the video I saw on "you tube " it showed a couple of the passes previous to the incident and I noted that when those aircraft pulled up and over they continued their bank and No.1aircraft continued around until they were in the down wind section of the curcuit in a tighter turn, basically completing their initial and pitch manouvere. In the incident fly past I observed that the Mustang pulled up and over but did not continue his turn and levelled out. Now that particular manouvere with the Middle lead aircraft pulling up and over, as I understand is what they call the "Lost Man". I counted a three second break between the Mustang and the Skyraider, in which some formations that is a Ok provided you maintian visual on the lead aircraft, If the Mustang had of continued the pitch and bank the Skyraider pilot should still have had visual contact and have maitained that visual through the manouevere, basically following the Mustang around. The pilot would have seen the Mustang go over the top and bank to the left, and that has been the case from what I have experianced from the back seat during Initial and pitch, or other bank/angle and turn manoueveres. Now the next thing I observed is that yes the Skyraider did indeed do a steeper left pitch and bank but also when the Mustang rolled out and for the Skyraider to lose visual and to catch up to the Mustang like it did so quickly to make contact, the Mustang at some point during that move would have most likely reduced airspeed, whether the pilot pulled back the power I'm only guessing there. But if both aircraft were maintining equal speed, and this is the thought among some of the pilots I chatted to, the Skyraider with the angle and bank that it was maintaining possibly could have turned inside the Mustang if it was continuing with the same speed, but that is more speculation/guessing than anything else as well. Now for bailing out of the move for the Skyraider pilot I don't know what he could have done, he would have realised that he was in a bad position but at the end of the day he had nowhere to go, he would not have had visual on the Mustang on his right hand side either, apart from radio contact but it would have happened really quick for the Skyraider pilot that it was over as quick as he realised what had happened.

 

The other issue in this incident is having pilots flying a mixed formation with diferent aircraft types. Pilots have to be aware of the different handling characteristics and performance capabilities of the aircraft they are flying with. That is where practice, pratice, practice is essential. In no way am i saying these guys would not have been aware or even practiced there routine, no doubt they would have flown together probably many times over, but it is something you have to be aware of when formation flying with different aircraft types.

 

And as I also am aware of and odserved there is no substitute for a thorough pre-flight Breifing, as some have already noted previously on this thread flying just metres apart is dangerous, but good to watch and awseome to be there in the aircraft flying close to other aircraft.

 

As noted these were just my observations and notes from watching videos on the incident and my experiance as a rear seater during formation practices and spending time and being with Instructors who are well versed in formation flying. As the incident was unfortunate and a lovely aircraft was lost, it was a good result for safe return of the pilots and one aircraft. So could have been two aircraft. And again as they say hindsight is just a wonderful tool and sitting back watching in the comfort of a chair, its easy to critique, I would not to like to have been in that situation at all.

 

Cheers Scott

 

 

[Guest extralite]

Hi Scott...that sounded very much more then a student's observation. You are correct, on the pitch into the circuit, it is often a 3-4 second break, probably 3 g decelerating turn with power to idle and increasing power again approaching downwind speed and also 180 degrees. The initial pitch requires a quick look down for a glance inside at the g meter to hit the pre-briefed g.

 

If either pilot deviates from the pre-briefed parameters, it does really leave the middle man in the formation nowhere much to go, as i mentioned earlier. Certainly a few seconds of befuddlement. It is really easy to jump to a conclusion and assume number 2 more at fault, and it could be, but might not be as well. Would require the full investigation. Different aircraft types in the mix. I can almost feel being in the place of number 2, looking up after checking the g meter and thinking "where the hell is number 1"? Scary stuff.