Multiple Runways in use at a NonCert/Non Towered Aerodrome.... Question...

[redozbris]

Howdy All,

 

Next question, I wanted to ask, but got sidetracked last week, I was up on the 10th doing my best to imitate a pilot, and it dawned on me after we came back from the training area, and listening to the comms on the way in, that both Runway 06/24 and Runway 12/30 where both being used for Taxi/Takeoff/Landing, by gliders and motorised aircraft alike... After it dawned on the both of us ( I am unsure if the FI was simply testing me ) and seeing aircraft in both circuits, it seemed pruded to climb back out to overfly the airfield and come down on the dead side for landing on runway 24, but there where still people landing runway 30...

 

I have to ask, is this normal, no one seemed to phased by it, what are the rules, what are the requirements? I honestly thought that when coming back in you make your call, 'Caboolture Traffic, Tecnam XXXX, 5 miles to the East, Expect Arrival Airfield XX Minutes Caboolture' and then got closer making a call to request runway in use and winds would be a good idea, rather than coming in 'blind' so to speak...

 

Just a newbie asking questions, just curious about what everyones thoughts are!

 

Mark

 

 

[Ultralights]

yes its normal, happens all the time at Wollongong with runway 34 and 08 in use during summer with the sea breezes. i will always use the most into wind runway, wheras some schools or pilots doing circuits prefer the 10 kts crosswind. but as long as you have a radio, listen and use it, maintain separation, then all is good.

 

 

[facthunter]

It's common, but a significant extra load and hazard. This is where a radio operator on the ground just giving some idea of the runways in use and some traffic advice could be invaluable. If everyone does good radio procedures it is a help, but someone may have a radio that doesn't transmit or one day someones mic. button will stay on and that blocks out all transmisions. KEEP a GOOD LOOKOUT. Your life depends on it. It might seem like a big sky but around aerodromes is the place to have conflict with other aircraft and where most accidents happen. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

The name Caboolture seems to come up from time to time, and maybe we'll eventually be talking about someone who isn't with us any more.

 

CASA does have regulations for this, might pay to have a think about maybe some time trying to find them and read them

 

[Correction 15/7/11 - Regulation has been superseded, see below]

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Happens at Yarrawonga too. Runway 19/01 has a bitumen centre strip and is the "REGistered" runway, whereas Runway 23/05 is a dirt strip used only by ultralights. It is not uncommon to have both in use, or for the active runway to change while you are away, either due to next to no wind or a change in wind direction.

 

Obviously, the normal thing is to pick the most into wind runway, consistent with your operating manual and runway capability. Some aircraft will only use certain runways (in Yarrawonga's case, almost all GA aircraft use 19/23)

 

Listen on your inbound flight to see if you can pick the active runway or hear that more than one is in use. If you cannot tell, then it is best to overfly at 500' above the top circuit height and observe what is on what runways, which way is the wind sock pointing and how strong is the wind.

 

Remember that if there is a ground radio at an uncontrolled aerodrome (Unicom), it is only advisory. The PIC still has responsibility to keep a lookout and make appropriate decisions.

 

Look in ERSA too. It may have information about runway usage, such as certain runways reserved for gliders. It may also allocate separate circuit areas for gliders / tugs and powered craft.

 

You just have to expect the unexpected too. Like some wally doing a right hand circuit on a left hand circuit runway or vice versa. In my almost two years of flying, I have seen this twice.

 

 

[redozbris]

Is there something I should know Turbo?

 

 

[djpacro]

Tocumwal has a similar issue although a mitigating factor is that it is rarely busy. Not that being busy is a prerequisite of a collision - a few years ago I saw a Piper Arrow with a hole the size of a wheel on the right hand side of the windscreen - somewhere in Gippsland.

 

Tocumwal is a beautiful airfield with miles and miles of runway (used to be 5 miles of sealed runways in its heyday). NS and EW runways with an addiitonal grass runway for gliders parrallel to each. Recommended per ERSA that we use the same direction as the gliders when they are operating but it doesn't stop people wanting to take shortcuts. It takes a very long while to taxi from the GA parking area to runway 18 so it is not uncommon for pilots to depart on 09 and land on 27. Not always using a radio. Good to see that most powered people follow the recommendations to operate in harmony with the gliders. And, of course, there may be aerobatics over the top too - for an organised event there will be a NOTAM.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

Yes, will see if I can find the information - Reg plus the confirmation when I got in the car and drive to Moorabbin Airport and spoke to a CASA guy.

 

[Correction 15/7/11, Regulation has been superseded, see below]

 

 

[djpacro]

It has happened at Toc unfortunately cficare. CASA pilot in a Bonanza http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/26245/aair199002021.pdf

 

Gliders can be very difficult to see.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Yep. Much easier to see any aircraft when it is banking. That's why you make your call before you turn. Gives people who hear the call a better chance of seeing you.

 

 

[djpacro]

or their smile

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Hi redoz.

 

To answer your questions. Yes, it happens everywhere where there are multiple runways.

 

Yes there are rules governing joining and cct separations etc. Good radio helps, alot, but theres always the odd one out.

 

You want the most into wind runway, a basic rule of airmanship.

 

You must giveway to other aircraft in the cct, that includes ones that are ccting on a different runway.

 

You must give way to gliders.

 

And you must make any radio calls you feel necessary to avoid conflict.

 

Have no fear, you wont be let loose in that environment until your competent and comfortable with joining a busy cct where there are multiple runways in use.

 

LOOKOUT, LISTEN OUT and plan ahead. The danger is the descent and join, have all the checks done prior to getting anywhere near the cct and spot the traffic.

 

Oh, did i mention LOOKOUT?? Clear your turns and keep bank angles shallow for better visibility.

 

One more time....LOOKOUT!!!!!!

 

 

[redozbris]

It has happened at Toc unfortunately cficare. CASA pilot in a Bonanza http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/26245/aair199002021.pdfGliders can be very difficult to see.

Isnt this the truth, I was listening to the circuit the other week from the windsock and heard a glider call 5 miles, then downwind, then base, damned if I could see him, only when he was on final and I caught a glint of him with the sun...

 

Plus the couple of gazelles that are painted green, the bi plane that is blue on top and yellow below... the all blue aircraft that seem to pop in and out of the hangers... i mean why do people make it more difficult than what is has to be!!

 

 

[kaz3g]

Happens at Yarrawonga too. Runway 19/01 has a bitumen centre strip and is the "REGistered" runway, whereas Runway 23/05 is a dirt strip used only by ultralights...

Hi David

 

What is the surface of 05/23 like at the moment? Is it rain affected or does it drain well? I've always landed on the bitumen but it's good to have an alternative.

 

Thanks

 

kaz

 

 

[djpacro]

05-23 is not maintained i.e. it is not a runway. The bit between the two sealed runways is used as a taxiway so that would do you in a strong wind. The rest of it looks uninviting - I will walk out there and let you know before the Chipmunk event.

 

Referring to another item by redozbris - at places like Tocumwal, there is no dead side - powered people circuit one direction and gliders the other.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Is there something I should know Turbo?

Here you go:

 

The regulation applicable to this is Civil Aviation Regulation 166

 

Regulation 166 (2) states:

 

The pilot in command of an aircraft that is being operated in

 

the vicinity of a non-controlled aerodromemust: (my emphasis)

 

then in 166 (2) (f) states:

 

"to the extent practicable, land and take off into wind"

 

This means,"if it can be done he must do it"

 

("Practicable" is defined in the Oxford dictionary as "that can be done", feasible.)

 

I also personally discussed this with a CASA Flight Operations Inspector and had him confirm that this is what we are required to do.

 

[Correction 15/7/11, This Regulation has been superseded, see below]

 

 

[redozbris]

So essentially, its a judgement call by the PIC to choose the runway that is into the wind (A Legal Judgement Call..) the interesting thing is that where I fly out of there is only 6 degree's between the two runways, I can understand if there is a higher angle between the two runways, but with 6 degree's now that I know that this happens elsewhere, I wont be as suprised if it happens again, just have to keep a good gooood lookout and keep two ears out on the radio (If they ar Tx'ing!)

 

 

[turboplanner]

The CAR document (Civil Aviation Regulations 1988) has been updated with a start date of 27/6/11

 

The CAR 162 (2) I quoted has disappeared, and has been replaced by:

 

Volume 3

 

Part 12

 

Division 2

 

Subdivision 2

 

166A

 

166A General Requirements for aircraft on the manoeuvring area or in the vicinity of, a non-controlled aerodrome.

 

(2)

 

(h) if the pilot takes off from or lands at, the aerodrome, the pilot must take off or land into the wind if, at the time of take off

 

and landing:

 

(i) the pilot is not permitted under sub regulation (5) to take off or land downwind; and

 

(ii) it is practicable to take off and land into the wind.

 

(5) for subparagraph (2) (h) (i), the pilot in command of an aircraft may take off or land downwind at a non-controlled aerodrome if:

 

(a) the aircraft's flight manual allows the aircraft to take off or land downwind; and

 

(b) after considering any other aircraft that are being operated on the manoeuvring area, or in the vicinity of the aerodrome, the

 

pilot believes it is safe to do so.

 

The way I read this, it is CASA extracting itself from prescriptive legislation for public liability reasons, and actions illegal under the previous clause are now legal, but with the legal onus placed on the Pilot in Command's judgement, which means the Public Liability case would be against the PIC who made a wrong judgement, and I would imagine the old 162 (2) is already tucked away in the lawyers files ready for use.

 

 

[Mazda]

Red, it happens regularly enough at various aerodromes. You need to work out which runway suits your needs and slot into that circuit, making sure there is no conflict with any other circuit. At Caboolture be careful of the runway crossing area, and you can't see the end of the other runway so try to keep awareness of what everyone is doing.

 

At Caboolture one of the issues is the traffic mix. For example, the Mustang might want to use 12/30 and accept a crosswind, the aircraft with a low crosswind limit might need to use 06/24. The gliders get set up on one end of one runway and it takes a fair bit for them to get everything moved, so they tend to stay there for a while, even when the wind changes.

 

Wait until you call inbound and find there are aircraft using both 30 and 12. Or when a vehicle turns onto the runway you are landing on. Yes, it does happen at YCAB.

 

Keep situational awareness. Remember that there are meat bombers, gliders, helicopters hovering up and down both strips, people will call "ready immediate departure runway 06" when you have called lining up on 12. So listen, and remember they might be on the wrong frequency, have a dodgy radio (one of the Jabs there is shocking), or no radio, so keep a very good lookout. Be prepared to ask if you are not sure, call them up and ask their intentions. Don't enter the runway and sit there doing runups, as people at YCAB seem to do, it is the way to get landed on.

 

There are some dodgy operations there Red so be very careful and have eyes in the back of your head.

 

 

[redozbris]

I am keeping my eyes wide open I tell you what, a chap the other week decieded that he would join from the dead side, accross the threshold and pull in behind us the other week, all I saw was a flash of this plane from the left hand side.. Most disturbing, I've moved training to sundays seems to be less traffic, still keeping a VERY close eye outside.

 

With being a student pilot making the radio call is hard, you dont want to sound like an idiot, I know its the wrong attitude, but getting on the ctaf and blabbing out all the wrong things is just asking for a caning from the higher ups, I'm happy the right seat chimes in and keeps a good lookout for me as well, 4 eyes are better than 2...

 

 

[Spin]

Yep Caboolture features whenever this conversation occurs - in my experience the vigilance required ratchets up several notches whenever I hear "Glider-ABC" or an ag aircraft calling in the vicinity. Both can and will do things that you may not expect of your average aircraft.

 

I do wish that people would talk to each other a bit more and have some consideration for the other's operating requirements (probably a vain hope I know:loopy:) - just in the last few months I've had a glider call right base (first call I heard out of him) as I was turning left base (having called it) for the same runway - no problem, he has right of way so I reverse the turn and head off on a X country downwind, also advising what I am up to. Come back down an extended final to find glider sitting in middle of runway still, whilst they sort out the ground tug's towrope - ok, they could have done that off to one side, but go around , motor around the circuit and find that they are now dragging the glider slooooowly back up the runway, go around again! It's the them n us mentality unfortunately, fostered in this case by having separate clubs across the runway from each other.

 

Then we had the aggie, working a few miles from a busy, predominately RA field on a Sat morning. Never mind the active that everyone else is using, he set up his loader next to the cross runway and was landing one way, then swinging around and taking off on the reciprocal, with the bare minimum of communication. I know he has a job to do and for the most part everyone was veering all over the sky to accomodate him, but for petes sake just a little courtesy and even airmanship would have gone a long way in this instance.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Hi DavidWhat is the surface of 05/23 like at the moment? Is it rain affected or does it drain well? I've always landed on the bitumen but it's good to have an alternative.

Thanks

 

kaz

Smooth, like a baby's ... It has been regraded recently and had a surface treatment on a couple of soft spots. Also it has been widened from 6m to 17m :-)

Yes, it drains well and is seldom unusable, even when there's a "soft sfc" NOTAM for the grass edges of 19/01.

 

*Edit. Just for clarity. This post refers to YYWG (Yarrawonga)

 

 

[djpacro]

A consideration for gliders at some airfields is that they go on long flights and by the time they get back home the battery is low so transmissions are weak at best.

 

 

[Mazda]

Red, don't be afraid to ask if you don't know what is happening, it's your life on the line (the same goes for ATC), and the only mandatory radio call in CTAFs how is any call you need to make to avoid a conflict. If you are not sure what to say, use plain English. Listen to every radio call to see if there could be a conflict, and also look for the ones who may not have radio (like gliders, who may also be at non-standard heights).

 

 

[Tomo]

Ah good O'l Caboolture!!

 

If you can handle there everywhere else is quite a breeze...

 

Seen the P51 Mustang go around a couple of times due to slower aircraft in front or some other thing on the runway... makes for an awesome spectacle, but I always wonder how many hundred dollars it just cost them.

 

It really just boils down to a good lookout, and plan to arrive back there with plenty of fuel to go around, and around... if need be. You gotta enjoy the process, it's the only way.

 

Ps. Watch out for Kangaroos too, they don't mind facing a spinning propeller there anymore.