'Secret' Aircraft registration

[docjell]

The topic thread of an 'emergency sticker' attached to an aircraft and giving the owner/pilots contact details brought to light information that I found extraordinary in the extreme. During discussion it transpired that my contact details relating to my aircraft registration marks are kept by the RAAus as 'confidential information' - I'd assume therefore that my details were only to be given out on a need to know basis (eg ATC or via AFRU to chase up or charge landing fees), but apparently not. They are available to Search and Rescue only, so I'm told. The RAAus wishes to be seen as a responsible cog in the wider aviation 'machine', yet are not prepared for their members to be openly accountable for their actions. We share the airspace with many other users - why are we hiding behind a cloak of secrecy? Surely ATC has every right to know who I am if I have caused control chaos somewhere - and to contact me for a 'please explain' directly?

 

Ross Millard waxed lyrical on the subject and said that the RAAus membership had 'voted for this' (when - recently?) therefore it was effectively set in stone. Of course 'secret registration' was voted for - its human nature surely- but its in no way responsible or reasonable. Why should we place ourselves apart from the systems in place for other aviators? By what right - simply because 'we voted for it??' No one would advocate that our ownership details should be open to anyone, but surely we should accept that we should be as 'traceable' as any VH registered aircraft?

 

Ross also disagrees with me that the RAAus is currently suffering from shaky credibility - but it most certainly is - keep your ears to the ground and listen. This absurd veil of 'ownership secrecy' does nothing to enhance this. We are pushing for more an more PPL privileges but without the extra knowledge and training (and of course expense) that goes with these privileges, and I believe this road is a dangerous one to travel. Our recreational ticket should be just that - fun in the sun. If you want more - get a PPL.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Perhaps that's why we are seeing a Sport and Recreational increase in CASA?

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

I guess that given we haven't given our individual permission, and it isn't in the membership conditions that we have given permission, RAA is adhering to the Privacy Act (C'wealth) and thus cannot release any personally identifiable information without our authority, except to law enforcement authorities under a properly authorised request, or in the case of a life and limb situation.

 

The problem with the term "need to know", is that it is subjective and thus meaningless and all encompassing at the same time. If you gave that authority to RAA, how would they interpret it?

 

I'm pretty sure that if it was a law breaking situation, CASA or the police would be able to get your details under a properly authorised request. I'm not sure why an Aerodrome Frequency Response Unit would need your details ? If you have an ELT or PLB, then AMSA already has your details, your aircraft registration and your three nominated emergency contacts.

 

I'd doubt that RAA wants to have to record individual wishes against each registration, so it would be a difficult change to make ALL registrations publicly queryable. You only have to look at how many members here use their real names or have them easily discoverable to tell that most people don't want to advertise their personal details.

 

I cannot see any way it could practically be done without a change to the RAA Constitution, as then you have to advertise the change and move a Special Resolution, with inherent mandate to pass.

 

 

[Spin]

Frankly in this day and age I am amazed that VH aircraft registrations are as transparent as they are. As other's have said, those that really need to know who owns an RA aircraft would have no difficulty in obtaining the info. In contrast, anyone tried to obtain ownership details on a motor vehicle? I spotted an old Chrysler Imperial that I wanted to photograph and measure for some bodywork and hit a brick wall in getting the info - aircraft, just look it up on the Casa site, link on the home page of this site.

 

 

[terryc]

The topic thread of an 'emergency sticker' attached to an aircraft and giving the owner/pilots contact details brought to light information that I found extraordinary in the extreme. During discussion it transpired that my contact details relating to my aircraft registration marks are kept by the RAAus as 'confidential information' - I'd assume therefore that my details were only to be given out on a need to know basis (eg ATC or via AFRU to chase up or charge landing fees), but apparently not. They are available to Search and Rescue only, so I'm told. The RAAus wishes to be seen as a responsible cog in the wider aviation 'machine', yet are not prepared for their members to be openly accountable for their actions. We share the airspace with many other users - why are we hiding behind a cloak of secrecy? Surely ATC has every right to know who I am if I have caused control chaos somewhere - and to contact me for a 'please explain' directly?Ross Millard waxed lyrical on the subject and said that the RAAus membership had 'voted for this' (when - recently?) therefore it was effectively set in stone. Of course 'secret registration' was voted for - its human nature surely- but its in no way responsible or reasonable. Why should we place ourselves apart from the systems in place for other aviators? By what right - simply because 'we voted for it??' No one would advocate that our ownership details should be open to anyone, but surely we should accept that we should be as 'traceable' as any VH registered aircraft?

Ross also disagrees with me that the RAAus is currently suffering from shaky credibility - but it most certainly is - keep your ears to the ground and listen. This absurd veil of 'ownership secrecy' does nothing to enhance this. We are pushing for more an more PPL privileges but without the extra knowledge and training (and of course expense) that goes with these privileges, and I believe this road is a dangerous one to travel. Our recreational ticket should be just that - fun in the sun. If you want more - get a PPL.

Hi Docjell, what are you inferring with the tone of your post, you ask by what right do we ask RAA to kept our details private. Well, the right given to us by government legislation. You say this is not responsible or reasonable, how can this be so and how can we be being treated any differently from other aviators, Do you have a chip on your shoulders that you would like to get off. [ I ask this question respectfully]

 

 

[turboplanner]

S

 

 

[MAB123]

I agree with the Doc I don't have anything to hide and I know of cases where planes have been sold because the purchaser noted the rego and followed up to buy the aircraft there is a lot of road rage so I can under stand the lack of car rego info

 

 

[Tomo]

So what happened the third time CFI, did she wink?

Or this?

 

 

 

[docjell]

Hi Terry - fairly chip free as far as I know! I don't ask by what right RAAus keeps our details private -that's a given - I ask how come we apparently have greater rights to privacy than VH aircraft? I didn't suggest government legislation was not reasonable or responsible - don't misquote me - I suggest that our ability to keep our registration details secret was the irresponsible unreasonable bit.My friendly mole in ATC assures me that getting details for a VH aircraft is easy (a reasonable 'need to know' wouldn't you say) but for an RAAus aircraft very difficult - is this really reasonable? And how does it enhance our much needed credibility?

 

I don't think it does at all.

 

 

[Spin]

Nah docjell, I don't follow all the indignation at all - I know RA bashing is fashionable in some quarters, but so far in our association I have been happy with how they have conducted themselves. If, as you now say, your issue is with CASA rego's being transparent and ours not, well take that up with them, don't blame RA-Aus for acting in accordance with the majority vote. Incidently, I enquired of an atc contact and was met with the proverbial "huh, what problem" when I asked if there was any problem in getting RA registration details if necessary......

 

 

[terryc]

Hi Terry - fairly chip free as far as I know! I don't ask by what right RAAus keeps our details private -that's a given - I ask how come we apparently have greater rights to privacy than VH aircraft? I didn't suggest government legislation was not reasonable or responsible - don't misquote me - I suggest that our ability to keep our registration details secret was the irresponsible unreasonable bit.My friendly mole in ATC assures me that getting details for a VH aircraft is easy (a reasonable 'need to know' wouldn't you say) but for an RAAus aircraft very difficult - is this really reasonable? And how does it enhance our much needed credibility?I don't think it does at all.

Hi Docjell, firstly that's great, secondly our rights to privacy are the same, it seems VH rego plane owners are not given their rightful entitlement in this regard which I was not aware of and needs to be addressed. It's likely something that's gone on forever back when nobody cared about others privacy. Nowadays this is unacceptable. I like it as it is and don't want RAA office staff time taken up with people chasing up plane regos and such,[ important matters excluded of course.] If the issue is one of avoiding landing fees as was the inference in an earlier post then that's one of dishonesty and should be frowned on by us all but is not cause to have our rights removed. Sorry about the misquote my brain and fingers aren't as connected as they should be, on the issue of responsibility and reasonability we will have to disagree.

 

Regards Terry

 

 

[sseeker]

I thought that because RA-Aus wasn't a government agency (appears to be an incoporated organisation?) they had to abide by certain privacy laws. I'm sure it's in the air law somewhere that CASA is allowed to publish VH registered A/C owner information on the web. Not very good in my opinion, VH-ABC is low flying over my house... I might go pay the owner a visit. Owners always have the option to have a PO Box.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[winsor68]

Personally I find it bizarre and ridiculous that I can take any VH aircraft rego and find out the owner and where they live... or which airport they likely keep their aircraft at. I think the question definitely should be why? Not why this info is not available to the general public on Ra-Aus aircraft and owners.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

I thought that because RA-Aus wasn't a government agency (appears to be an incoporated organisation?) they had to abide by certain privacy laws.-Andrew

Actually, whether they have to comply depends on the size of the organisation. I'd have to look it up again to refresh my memory on the criteria, but it is aimed at not enforcing undue process on small business, who are unlikely to have large privacy issues anyway. Most businesses, however find that, particularly where they have a web presence, there is an expectation that they will observe the privacy principles expressed in the Privacy Act, even if they don't have all the business processes documented and client permissions recorded, which would be necessary to be fully compliant.

As an example, I am an office bearer in a club. I wanted to contact a member for private reasons unassociated with the club. I could have looked up their details in the club records, but that in my opinion would be unethical, so I waited till I saw them again and asked for their contact details.

 

There is an expectation that personal details will only be used for the purpose for which they are collected. Those reasons are enshrined in just about every contract you sign these days.

 

 

[ave8rr]

Personally I find it bizarre and ridiculous that I can take any VH aircraft rego and find out the owner and where they live... or which airport they likely keep their aircraft at. I think the question definitely should be why? Not why this info is not available to the general public on Ra-Aus aircraft and owners.

The findings by the Coroner of the Sting accident near Goulburn back in 2007 had the following to say at the end of his report.

 

I make the following recommendations, the Minister for Transport, with copies to RA AUS and to CASA, and ask for advice from each within six months as to their implementation.

 

1. That RA Aus be funded through CASA sufficiently to ensure annual inspection of Pilot and Aircraft Log Book Records, and to supervise regular servicing and maintenance of all recreational aircraft with two Levels required for maintenance, Level 1 being confined to low level maintenance by owners, and an annual, or 100 hours, whichever is the earlier, Level 2 service and inspection by suitably qualified independent mechanics. Further, that the current ‘Policy and Accreditation of Persons Suitable to Conduct Maintenance on Recreational Aircraft’ be reviewed by RA Aus with a view to restricting the type of work that may be carried out at Level 1.

 

2. That RA Aus have power to ensure that Condition Reports are correctly prepared and presented by an independent LAME prior to any sale of any aircraft.

 

3. That RA Aus establish a public register (including the records) of all recreational aviation aircraft (ultralight) importations and sales in Australia, and accept the obligation to ensure appropriate registration based on a certificate of airworthiness.

 

4. That RA Aus have the power to impose sanctions including fines and loss of licence for non-adherence to its requirements.

 

I note in para 3 above that the coroner recommends a public register be implemented within six months. I wonder what advice he received from both organisations.

 

My pennies worth

 

Cheers

 

 

[terryc]

The findings by the Coroner of the Sting accident near Goulburn back in 2007 had the following to say at the end of his report.I make the following recommendations, the Minister for Transport, with copies to RA AUS and to CASA, and ask for advice from each within six months as to their implementation.

 

1. That RA Aus be funded through CASA sufficiently to ensure annual inspection of Pilot and Aircraft Log Book Records, and to supervise regular servicing and maintenance of all recreational aircraft with two Levels required for maintenance, Level 1 being confined to low level maintenance by owners, and an annual, or 100 hours, whichever is the earlier, Level 2 service and inspection by suitably qualified independent mechanics. Further, that the current ‘Policy and Accreditation of Persons Suitable to Conduct Maintenance on Recreational Aircraft’ be reviewed by RA Aus with a view to restricting the type of work that may be carried out at Level 1.

 

2. That RA Aus have power to ensure that Condition Reports are correctly prepared and presented by an independent LAME prior to any sale of any aircraft.

 

3. That RA Aus establish a public register (including the records) of all recreational aviation aircraft (ultralight) importations and sales in Australia, and accept the obligation to ensure appropriate registration based on a certificate of airworthiness.

 

4. That RA Aus have the power to impose sanctions including fines and loss of licence for non-adherence to its requirements.

 

I note in para 3 above that the coroner recommends a public register be implemented within six months. I wonder what advice he received from both organisations.

 

My pennies worth

 

Cheers

I think the advice he might have received went something like winsor68s comment. Sometimes comments by a coroner have real value and sometimes they don't. In this case it seems he/she is a bit out of touch.

 

 

[robinsm]

The coroner is making "recommendations" only. Whether the organization follows them or not is up to the organization. I, for one, would argue the other way. I think Raa-aus are doing it correctly, I would not want my contact details available to all and sundry. I think CASA have it wrong. The point about the information on car registration and car owners is well taken and I fail to see that we are any different to car owners. The point that CASA are a govt body and therefore have to make their records public doesn't hold water. The RTA and their state equivalents are not required to unless there is a reason enshrined in legislation, as in Police etc having access.

 

 

[winsor68]

Perhaps we should be charging anyone appropriately licensed... perhaps we could sell them a license?... $15 a pop to receive the rego details of Ra-Aus aircraft? I don't have a problem with them being available... just not to the public!

 

 

[eightyknots]

In New Zealand, all ultralight (or microlight as they insist on calling them) aircraft are on a common register with GA aircraft and carry registration mark which are the same as all other aircraft. On the same register you could have a Boeing 747 and a Zenith CH-701. In either case, you can find out the owner by searching the register. If you did the search, you would get Air New Zealand and Joe Bloggs Family Trust, for example.

 

This common register -available to anyone to search- has never been an issue of debate in New Zealand.

 

 

[68volksy]

What about the issue of landing fees? My understanding is RA-Aus registered aircraft can land at any airport fee-free due to the locked-box secrecy regarding their ownership. I don't see this as rightly fair. We could always install boom-gates on runways but somehow I don't think this would work.

 

You cannot compare car registration to aircraft registration. Be like comparing dog registration to car registration.

 

It's not a matter of privacy - if you want to register a VH aircraft then you're made fully aware of what details will be available and what will not. Also if you ever decide to become a director of any sized company you'll have all your details (including date and place of birth) publicly available. If you've ever bought a block of land or registered a mortgage then you'd be amazed at what's available to the public. The list goes on. It's also interesting to note that a register of all members of a club must be kept and made available to the public upon request. The privacy legislation is only designed to affect the big boys.

 

 

[winsor68]

What about the issue of landing fees? My understanding is RA-Aus registered aircraft can land at any airport fee-free due to the locked-box secrecy regarding their ownership. I don't see this as rightly fair. We could always install boom-gates on runways but somehow I don't think this would work.You cannot compare car registration to aircraft registration. Be like comparing dog registration to car registration.

 

It's not a matter of privacy - if you want to register a VH aircraft then you're made fully aware of what details will be available and what will not. Also if you ever decide to become a director of any sized company you'll have all your details (including date and place of birth) publicly available. If you've ever bought a block of land or registered a mortgage then you'd be amazed at what's available to the public. The list goes on. It's also interesting to note that a register of all members of a club must be kept and made available to the public upon request. The privacy legislation is only designed to affect the big boys.

I agree that Ra-Aus being able to dodge landing fees is an issue... I have no problem with Ra-Aus releasing my info...or the info on the aircraft I am flying in the right circumstances and to the right people... I still find it totally, totally crazy that VH registered aircraft and their owners are listed online for any Tom, Dick or Harry to look up... I don't in the slightest understand the logic of this in this day and age...

 

 

[68volksy]

I don't see the information being available as a concern at all. As i said if you give me just a name i'll soon be able to get at least your address, mortgage details, credit history and if you've ever been part of a company your date of birth and place of birth. And that's all without breaking any privacy legislation and using publicly available documents.

 

If you want to be a member of your local Aero Club you effectively place all your details out into the public domain. Why not let the public know the owner of that noisy aircraft flying at 100 feet above the bed of the sleeping shift worker. It's not like the police will be around to book them or RA-Aus will give any complaints even a moments thought...

 

 

[68volksy]

I see it as being polite and responsible for my actions.

 

 

[jerrajerra]

"...details relating to my aircraft registration marks are kept by the RAAus as 'confidential information' - I'd assume therefore that my details were only to be given out on a need to know basis..."

 

But anybody can find details of the owner/operator/business name/address to any registered VH aircraft. All I do is use the VHF-Ref iphone app.

 

Is the RAAUS registration of non-VH registered aircraft treated differently? And if so, why is that?

 

Thanks, Chris

 

 

[winsor68]

I don't see the information being available as a concern at all. As i said if you give me just a name i'll soon be able to get at least your address, mortgage details, credit history and if you've ever been part of a company your date of birth and place of birth. And that's all without breaking any privacy legislation and using publicly available documents.If you want to be a member of your local Aero Club you effectively place all your details out into the public domain. Why not let the public know the owner of that noisy aircraft flying at 100 feet above the bed of the sleeping shift worker. It's not like the police will be around to book them or RA-Aus will give any complaints even a moments thought...

But I don't wish to give you my name... That is the problem...I don't mean you personally or this exact instance... but I don't want to give any Joe Blog my name.... If you are a person in authority (whatever that may be- I am sure you get it) then no problem... Do I have to give someone my name when I buy a coke?