Garuda Flight 200 update

[Ben Longden]

Speed caused Garuda crash

 

Article from: </IMG>

 

• Wing flaps failed to function
   
  
  
   
   
  
• Plane travelling at 'crazy' speed
   
  
  
   
   
  
• Black-box recorder fixed
   
  

 

THE Garuda Indonesia aircraft crash that killed 21 people, including five Australians, was caused by the passenger jet attempting to land at a higher than normal speed.

 

The Boeing 737-400 was carrying 140 people when it overshot the runway at Yogyakarta on March 7.

 

The chief crash investigator, Mardjono Siswosuwarno, said the aircraft's wing flaps failed to extend for landing and that might have been caused by the high speed.

 

"This could be a contributing factor, but what is more important is that the plane's speed was higher than normal. Why? We don't know yet," said Siswosuwarno, from the National Transport Safety Commission.

 

Survivors of the crash have described how the aircraft approached the runway at a "crazy" speed.

 

Siswosuwarno said experts in the US had fixed the cockpit voice recorder after it was badly burnt when the plane burst into flames. Investigators can download the last 30 minutes of the crew's conversations, he said.

 

Police have questioned the pilots and cabin crew.

 

Public pressure for better safety in Indonesia's skies is building following a string of recent air accidents, including a sea crash that left 102 dead, and two crash landings.

 

The country's new air transport chief, Budhi Muliawan Suyitno, will next week announce a list of domestic airlines that have failed safety standards and will be given three months to comply or cease operations.

 

"We aim to secure zero-accident status within the next few years, something that has been achieved by the aviation industries of other countries," he told The Jakarta Post.

 

"They operate the same type of planes, sometimes of the same age. If they can, why can't we?"

 

Vice-President Jusuf Kalla said airlines would be warned, suspended or shut down if the audit found they had violated safety regulations.

 

The Media Indonesia newspaper quoted a Transport Ministry source as saying that the Government planned to revoke the operation licence on 11 airlines that had been inactive for months.

 

Reuters, AFP in The Australian

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Not surprising. Quantity not quality over there. Garuda tried so badly to hide the a/c and markings after the crash. Just FYI here is the actual a/c involved.

 

Garuda 737 PK-GZC

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Nooooo.... it can't be!

 

The tail fin hasn't been sprayed black, and you can still read the rego..... ;)

 

Seems like its a "loss of face" amongst peers to do a go around in Indonesia.

 

Ben

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Telling me. Isn't it amazing o/s operations compared to here.

[Yenn]

I wonder where they get their pilots, if the passengers can tell speed is too high why can't the pilots. But I saw a transcript of the ATC clearance to land and the the controller asked if wheels were down and checked. I have never heard that in Australia. I always assumed that pilots here were considered competent.

 

 

[Bruce Robbins]

Gents,

 

Don't be too qiuck to jump to conclusions. Landing a big jet is a lot more complex than the "bug-smashers" we fly, and when things start going wrong the situation can get out of hand very quickly. The CVR (Cockpit Voice recorder) has been recovered and sent back to America where they have managed to extract most of the data, despite some fire damage. We just need to be patient and wait for the investigation to announce its findings.

 

Also:

 

1) Painting out aircraft logos after an accident is common practice in many countries, not just Indonesia.

 

2) The tower at the airport concerned was manned by the military, where it is also common practice to confirm undercarriage down and locked. Listen in to any Australian military ATC sometime.

 

Happy reading!

 

Bruce

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Agreed, but there are cultural differences as well, where many indonesian pilots have a problem with being trained, listening and accepting others advice.

 

Sorry, but this comes from a guy who trains these guys. His advice is not to fly with them - he wont.

 

On the lighter side, I wonder if there will be any voice recordings like "Boss, why are we landing at takeoff speed?"

 

Ben

 

 

[facthunter]

Garuda

 

I'm with Bruce on this at the moment I believe it will all come out. My limited experience with Asian pilots Is such that I will make 2 comments.

 

In knowledge of the numbers and the manuals, they tend to be very thorough, probably moreso than we are.

 

The junior person in the crew would never question a superior officer. This is a cultural thing, shown to be a common factor in many reviews( post-accident) of cockpit behavior. This is compounded where the senior pilot is ex-military often with most of it single pilot. & the junior crewmember is of very limited experience, ( his/her,(unlikely)) parents may have paid for the minimum training to get him a GOOD job. There is a serious shortage of pilots in the area. N..

 

 

[Ben Longden]

My ex instructor now teaches chinese pilots, and he says the scariest thing are when he asks "did you hear that traffic?" and they say no.

 

Then he asks if they saw the traffic.. and they say no.

 

I was run over in the circuit a while ago, and its not much fun when the rear window is full of a 172 and you can see the pilot is looking inside the cockpit and disregarding you and any radio calls you make to him.

 

Ben

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Melb Age March 23, 2007

 

Indonesia is giving six commercial airlines three months to improve safety standards or face closure, the country's aviation chief has said.

 

The audit was ordered by the government to evaluate transport safety following a string of deadly air accidents in recent months.

 

First an Adam Air jet carrying carrying 102 people disappeared in January, and on March 7 a Garuda plane overshot the runway and burst into flames, killing 21 people, including five Australians.

 

An audit of 54 aviation firms revealed that none of them made it to the first of three rating classes, said Budhi Muliawan Suyitno, the director general of civil aviation at the transport ministry.

 

Fifteen companies, including six scheduled passenger airlines, were placed in the lowest category and were considered to have met only minimal standards of safety.

 

National carrier Garuda Indonesia made the second grade.

 

Suyitno said airlines in the third category would be given warnings to improve standards in three months.

 

"If there's no improvement within three months, there will be a suspension order, and if there's still no improvement they will be shut down," he told reporters.

 

The airlines given three months to shape up were AdamAir, Kartika Airlines, Jatayu, Batavia, Trans Wisata Air and Dirgantara.

 

Air travel in Indonesia, a sprawling country of more than 17,000 islands, has grown substantially since the liberalisation of the airline industry in 1999, which triggered price wars among airlines.

 

The rapid growth raised questions over whether safety has been compromised and aviation infrastructure and personnel can cope with the huge increase.

 

Indonesia is also grappling with problems in other modes of transportation. There have been two serious ferry disasters in recent months killing hundreds of people, while rail accidents on an ageing system built during the Dutch colonial era occur frequently.

 

Reuters

 

 

[facthunter]

Standards of training.

 

Ben, I can understand how you feel,& we should not have to put up with an unsafe operation in our local environment.

 

Whatever the reason, & for one, language, Could be a big factor here. Now I am not putting this up as an excuse. Whoever is training these people is responsible as is ultimately the regulator.CASA.

 

Any unsafe practices should be reported and acted upon. The schools are happy to take the money, they must be aware of the standards that prevail & if they are not,they are not doing their job properly.

 

Quite a few instances involving the training of overseas students the principle seems to be "pay the money, get the qualification". The possibility of failing someone is too hard, and we might lose the business.

 

How morally indefensible is that?

 

Nev....

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Agreed.

 

With safety there should be no compromise. There is no grey area, its either safe or unsafe.

 

That is one of the things hammered home to me by the team at Air Shepp.

 

Ben

 

 

[Guest brentc]

It would take as little as 20 knots of excess speed for an airliner to run off the runway like this one. I put to you that NO passenger in the world could tell the difference between 120 and 140 knots, which is all that it would have taken. Take everything you hear from said witnesses with a grain of salt.

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Take everything you hear from said witnesses with a grain of salt.

Or the media...

 

 

[hihosland]

Take everything you hear from said witnesses with a grain of salt.

However you can rely absolutely on anything published in these forums

 

Davidh

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

 

 

[Student Pilot]

It would take as little as 20 knots of excess speed for an airliner to run off the runway like this one. I put to you that NO passenger in the world could tell the difference between 120 and 140 knots, which is all that it would have taken. Take everything you hear from said witnesses with a grain of salt.

But expirenced flyers could tell if there was 50 or 80 knots difference, how much extra speed would you need to run off the end of the runway, wipe the nosegear out, still keep traveling through a big ditch across a road then 200 metres into a paddock? I'd guess at more than 20 knots.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Interesting the size of relevant deviations from targets here. Please note that in this Qantas One example I am not suggesting that this was the only problem - there were numerous other issues, both operational and system failures, according to ATSB. But here's a snippet of what started proceedings for Qantas One. Remember that this was the a/c that lost major bits of its gear and engine and ended up on a golf course after demolishing a navaid or two. From the ATSB report:

 

"The aircraft then started to deviate above the 3.15 degree glideslope, passing over the runway threshold at 169 kts at a height of 76 ft. Those parameters were within company limits. (The target speed for the final approach was 154 kts, and the ideal threshold crossing height was 44 ft.)"

 

 

 

So that's 15 knots and 32 feet to start a process that ends up in a bucket load of strife.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

PS: I am NOT speculating on what went on with the Garuda Flight. Rather I am responding to the discussion about how much would be enough to start a problem.

 

 

[Downunder]

Hi all. Would (could?) pilots be under pressure not to do go-arounds because of fuel usage? I read some where the best airline pilots (in the eyes of their company) are those that use the least fuel.

 

Regards,

 

R J Mitchell

 

 

[Guest Teenie2]

"However, a reputable airline, would not look badly upon a pilot for doing a go-around....I know that Qantas' motto is 'safety before service'."

 

You have to be joking, Qantas is just very very lucky. (Believe me I'm involved)

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

You have to be joking, Qantas is just very very lucky. (Believe me I'm involved)

Not the first time I have heard this from someone. Chris, you approach this one from a different angle. :big_grin:

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Preliminary finding:

 

 

 

Pilots 'argued before crash'

 

April 01, 2007 10:21am

 

Article from: AAP

 

• Pilots were flying together for the first time
   
  
  
   
   
  
• Black box reveals argument during landing
   
  
  
   
   
  
• Co-pilot did not lower landing flaps
   
  

 

THE pilots of a Garuda airliner that crashed in Indonesia, killing 21 people including 5 Australians, were arguing moments before the accident, a senior Indonesian investigator has said.

 

Garuda Airlines Boeing 747-400 caught fire after overshooting the runway at Yogyakarta airport in Indonesia on March 7.

 

The chief Indonesian investigator Tatang Kurniadi today said the plane's black box recordings show the pilot and co-pilot were involved in an argument over the plane's speed and wing flaps moments before the crash.

 

He said his preliminary findings would point to human error, and "absent mindedness" as the cause of the disaster.

 

"Absent mindedness - I worry that this accident came from the absent-mindedness from the cockpit," Mr Kurniadi said on Channel 9's Sunday program.

 

The captain and first officer were flying together for the first time, he said.

 

"The co-pilot is a young pilot with just 2000 flying hours and the captain, experienced, having enough experience, more than 15,000 flying hours," the investigator said.

 

Mr Kurniadi said the black box revealed the captain and first officer were arguing just before the plane came down, with the co-pilot demanding the pilot "go around" and delay the landing.

 

"There was some argumentation between the co-pilot and the pilot and captain relating with the speed and flaps," he said.

 

Mr Kurniadi said the flaps did not jam, rather the co-pilot did not put them down properly because the plane was going too fast.

 

Mr Kurniadi and his team will finalise their results within a month.

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Must be me, but I swore I posted a story from Todays Melb Age (1.4.07) saying just the opposite. I cant seem to find it. (and I do have my glasses..)

 

The story said investigators thought they heard the word "go around" said, and that there was no arguements in flight, but plenty afterwards.

 

However, SBS news replayed a NINE interview with the chief investigator who stated the pilots argued.

 

Ben

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Conflicting stories again Ben.Aaah the media...:;)4:

 

 

[Guest Teenie2]

Chris, you must have a manager that does not care about his yearly bonus (based on departure time)

 

"Gee boss there is something wrong with the pneumatics ,we have a huge leak in the wheel well" (me)

 

" I dont care it has to depart in 20 min" (supervisor/ L/H)

 

This happens almost daily, not just to me but many other staff.