Controlled Airspace

[Guest Stixy]

Just wanting the latest on the Controlled Airspace Endorsement.

 

Are we any further ahead??

 

Looking forward to the replies

 

Tks

 

 

[docjell]

We are where we should be Stixy - recreational pilots in RAAus registered aircraft. If you want to fly in CTA get a PPL

 

Cheers

 

 

[Guest Stixy]

We are where we should be Stixy - recreational pilots in RAAus registered aircraft. If you want to fly in CTA get a PPLCheers

Thanks

I realise that and did my PPL but is not current at the moment.

 

In our area we have a large CTA. I regularly get clearance to transit the zone when I fly on weekends.

 

The guys here are very good and realise that they can cut 20 min off a trip by going through the zone.

 

I just didnt know what the latest was, as I will renew my PPL also.

 

 

[turboplanner]

That's interesting, I wonder what the legals would be if there was a collision.

 

 

[Guest Stixy]

yeah unsure.

 

The CTA is the reason that RA cant get off the ground in this area. They have tried to get things going but people have to travel (min 90km to the nearsest facility) to get RA training and its a shame.

 

They dont want to land at a towered airport, just transit the zone.

 

 

[turboplanner]

I want to speed too but the cops don't wave me by.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

That's interesting, I wonder what the legals would be if there was a collision.

I raised exacly this point at a meeting at Coffs airport (CTA) and was told then (about 18months ago) by the controllers that they are told to assume that anyone requesting access has the necessary endorsments and licenses and while things are Ok all good, when something goes pearshaped then no doubt a public stoning will occur. My personal view is that this is absolutely the wrong thing for RAA folk to do. When something goes wrong, and it will, we are likely to have freedoms removed not added to.

Andy

 

 

[winsor68]

I raised exacly this point at a meeting at Coffs airport (CTA) and was told then (about 18months ago) by the controllers that they are told to assume that anyone requesting access has the necessary endorsments and licenses and while things are Ok all good, when something goes pearshaped then no doubt a public stoning will occur. My personal view is that this is absolutely the wrong thing for RAA folk to do. When something goes wrong, and it will, we are likely to have freedoms removed not added to.Andy

I agree... and a permission to Transit with the appropriately set up aircraft should be available without taking the loop hole... Given the correct training etc etc etc

I will add that one of the most insane things to me is that where I fly it is fairly easy to go around CTA at Mackay and Whitsunday... but you have Proserpine smack BANG in the middle which is non-towered and has 737's and Airbuses coming in anywhere from 10 000 feet just north of Mackay to the approach of PPP... straight in or whatever. So the problem already exists... perhaps some madatory training for safety is in order... (or better still fix up Aus Airspace so it is safer to start with!)

 

 

[Mazda]

Yes, Proserpine is an odd one, it proably should have a tower - I believe the old tower is used as a clubhouse?

 

 

[winsor68]

I have renamed the area north of here BoeingBus Alley and plan on being very dilligent with my dealings in the area... unfortunately there are a couple of really good airstrips right in amongst it all... Ironically it was PPP opening its doors to Ra that really got me realizing just where (anywhere!) those RPT's can be on approach.

 

 

[docjell]

Guys - especially windsor68 - I rest my case. If you want to 'play' in CTA -get a PPL. You allude on several occasions to 'the correct training' - its been available for years- its called aPPL with a CTA endorsement. Not difficult to understand or do. "Just" transiting CTA is exacting and precise - alt within 100 feet of clearance, pilot medically fit (unlikely to have an infarct or stroke) and reliably identifiable via a certified and tested transponder , VHF radio competent and able to respond and act appropriately - the list goes on. Our 'freedoms' to fly without undue restrictions, do our own maintenance etc are earned by the fact that we are NOT likely to conflict with more professional or better trained traffic. If this interaction is what the RAAus wants then we have to move out of the recreational field into the more serious GA arena- surely that is exactly what we are not about?Smilies

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Yes, Proserpine is an odd one, it proably should have a tower - I believe the old tower is used as a clubhouse?

There are heaps of inconsistencies like this. Coffs is Towered Class D, Ballina/Byron Gateway to the north and Port Macquarie to the South all take Airbus/Embraier/QL Dash 8's in about the same qty's per day and are without Tower in Class G. Tamworth on the otherhand from an RPT perspective has a smaller amount of traffic and only QL Dash 8's from memory but is towered as Coffs...

 

Andy

 

P.S not to say that Tamworth traffic in total is less, the Company I work for, BAE Systems has a facility at Tamworth and has around 20 CT4's that fly 4-5 times a day with RAAF and singapore Airforce Ab initio training sorties, so in terms of raw moevements its not exactly a backwater...

 

 

[winsor68]

I don't want to play in it... I just would like if they would get it organized so that when I go out to play they could keep these RPT the heck away from where I am doing it.... outside of controlled airspace as always and legal.

 

 

[Mazda]

Andy that is very true. There is a tower establishment and disestablishment criteria but it doesn't always seem to be applied. Sometimes I wonder if the towers are established where air traffic controllers might want to live and work!

 

Ultimately let's hope the inconsistencies are ironed out, in recent times there have been towers established at Broome and Karratha. There should at least be a UNICOM at RPT airports if there can't be anything else.

 

 

[jerrajerra]

...in recent times there have been towers established at Broome and Karratha. There should at least be a UNICOM at RPT airports if there can't be anything else.

I find the Tower at Karrtha interesting. Pilots are required to advise their position as there is no equiped radar in operation. Tower operator scans the skies with her/his binos and clears the traffic in and out and through. I suppose that's common around the country, though thought it would make more sense to have it operating similiar to the way how they will do Alice Springs AP.

 

 

[turboplanner]

We're not making the issue, CASA just said No.

 

 

[winsor68]

I am just learning all the intricacies of Ra-Aus and Airspace/Navigation... and I gotta say I reckon its Airspace in general that is pretty messed up... Flying in this area is fine with Mackay and Whitsunday Tower and controlled... but to my way of reading there are big gaps in it where its a case of just have a radio and an Ra-Aus endo and you can fly till your hearts content... just keep your ears open because there are aircraft out there flying non standard approaches through your airspace at 300 knots with limited visibility.

 

I am not saying that it is not safe... just that it is wide open for someone to poke there finger through the hole in the cheese as is... so not as safe as it should be in my opinion... the problem is not just with Ra-Aus and its pilots. I have already seen plenty of GA operators (probably because there is more of them) doing stuff that is outside of book on my limited travels.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...Zane Tully, in the current edition of SportPilot has a timely reminder that RA-Aus pilots do not have access to CTA...

In next month's edition, I dare say he'll be adding details of the more complex case, that if the RA-Aus Pilot also has a PPL which is current and endorsed for CTA, and the aircraft, instruments and radio meet requirements for CTA, then CTA can be accessed.

What is disturbing, however is the number of public admissions being made of simply ignoring the rules and requesting CTA access when they are not qualified or entitled to do so. I suspect that is the reason he has started by saying "NO", to alert those who are doing the wrong thing.

 

 

[Mazda]

On the UNICOM issue, that is exactly what they are supposed to be. They have nothing to do with Airservices, a UNICOM is not a certified air ground. It is a pilot, refueller, groundsman, ground handling agent, anyone, and it is advisory only. All they need to do is say there's an aircraft doing circuits and the wind is from the south. It works overseas and we really do need it here. The airlines have people talking to them on company frequency anyway, all they need to do is get that person on the CTAF.

 

Karratha is Class D, and Class D is not radar airspace.

 

Win I'm not sure what you are getting at with airspace, are you uncomfortable flying in Class G? I've heard airspace described as similar to the road system, so think of it that way. We cannot afford to have multi-lane tollways everywhere, only in busy corridors where there is a lot of traffic to pay for them. That is why when road traffic decreases, the roads go from tollway, to highway, to smaller sealed roads and dirt roads across much of Australia where there isn't a lot of traffic. Class G is the dirt road.

 

Ignition that is a very good point, I do hope RA-Aus can stay inexpensive and simple to give more people a chance to go flying. GA already exists!

 

On the CTA issue, I really don't know so I'm listening to what people have to say. I agree RA-Aus should be simple. In the USA the sport licence and rec licence don't allow CTA flight, but they can get a log book approval I think. That sounds like it means extra dual time, which of course means higher costs. It's one of the reasons GA is more expensive.

 

I also think ANY pilot should be given a clearance through any airspace if the weather or conditions mean it is safer - maybe it could be submitted as an incident if it has to be. Are RA-Aus pilots currently requesting clearance (for convenience, not emergency) and flying through without the training or qualification? If so, does that mean RA-Aus pilots should have CTA training as standard, adding to costs for those who might not ever fly in CTA, but it would reduce the chance of people trying to work the system?

 

I'm interested in what everyone really wants with this.

 

What about with the proposed Recreational Licence, what do you think should be included in that, if it is somewhere between RA-Aus and GA?

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

... if they can't hold a medical, then are they really fit and able to safely mix with heavy and larger traffic;...everywhere else they can fly, it looks better scenic than high rises and no where to land other than a street if the engine fails. If RAAus were to get an endorsement for CTA, no doubt those undertaking the endorsement would need to meet similar medical standards as CASA already requires,...

 

With the PPL, You gain more freedoms, it doesn't cost a yearly subscription for the license ...

While this may be true of Tullamarine, Mascot and the like, how does it sit with a location like Albury. The tower operates generally from 09:00 local time at the weekends, so it is Class G up till that time. So how does that work? I'm ok to fly in and out before 09:00, but after that time I need a higher standard of medical assurance! There aren't any better places for a forced landing during tower hours, either.

 

Add to that the CASA exemptions held at certain locations where an RAA FTF is actually inside CTA.

 

Just thought I'd point out the absurdity.

 

The PPL itself might not have a yearly subscription, but the periodical medical and ASIC that go with it effectively impose a recurrent expenditure.

 

Most of the people pushing for CTA seem to be in a situation where they are actually only seeking transit, not landing rights, so maybe some form of limited CTA can be negotiated. We've already seen posts that explain they need to take higher risk routes and / or much longer routes to avoid CTA.

 

 

[shags_j]

I want CTA, so I am doing my PPL. I don't think the issue is wether we should have CTA in RA but rather why GA schools charge so damn much! Surely they could pick up a tecnam, register it VH same as other flying schools then let the students benefit from the cheaper operating costs or does CASA overcharge the flying schools for GA? Not having run a flying school I have no idea of the ongoing costs.

 

Also goes to show how long I have been out of it, Zane was my instructor through my RA license and I have only just noticed that he has passed on his flying school to take up RA Boad role. Grats to Zane and with someone like him on the committee I believe they will continue to do what is best for the membership as a whole.

 

While it would be nice to be able to fly RA in CTA (don't have to drive an hour out of brisbane to get to an airport then) I understand the need for less CASA involvement in our hobby.

 

 

[winsor68]

Ignition... Wow! I agree. Lol.

 

Lets make what is already here a little more accessible and safer... let Recreational aircraft through some VFR lanes and keep all RPT out of the way. Simple.

 

 

[shags_j]

Blackrod: Apologies on Zane's position didn't know it wasn't a board spot but still...

 

And re: the cost of an aircraft, a lot of the schools are buying newish boomerangs etc. Surely they are the same cost as a p92. Or even Jabs are cheap enough...

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

......I'm interested in what everyone really wants with this.

What about with the proposed Recreational Licence, what do you think should be included in that, if it is somewhere between RA-Aus and GA?

Mazda

 

Years ago I wanted CTA access but over time Ive decided that actually I dont, what I want is for the transit lanes like the one from Maitland north to exist where there is a logical need for them. I always use Coffs as an example, up against the Great divide its often the case that transit to the west of coffs under CTA but east of the divide is problematic, the country below is country that in all truth we shouldnt be flying over if we are truely considering all the time what will I do if the fan stops.... To the east is the ocean, and to get under the CTA step means you are far enough out to sea that your illegal because you cant glide to shore if the fan stops... I find it amazing that Victor 1 exists yet something similar around Coffs doesnt exist

 

To me a lane to the west of coffs makes sense but not so west that your in tiger country. It would not conflict with RPT beacuse all circuits are to the east of the airport and only GA use the E-W cross strip. I dont think we need a huge height 1000ft would be fine and the lane probably wouldnt need a lot of zigs and zags in it but would need to run in or close to the SW CTA boundary line until the next step above 1000ft with the same on the northern side. If it had a mandatory advisory frequency which the tower also tuned then those that need to know could advise the IFR traffic and I believe that the overall safety would be enhanced and the "need (actually more accurate to describe as a want)" to break the rules that seems to exist as present would disspear and we still wouldnt need CTA access with all of the nervousness that seems to create. Its worked well for years at Rutherford so I cant see why it wouldnt work well elsewhere with the exception that breaking the lane as I propose could put you into immediate conflict if done stupidly...which I guess is true of anything done stupidly....

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

David, Im not familiar with Albury, what is the traffic like when the tower is active, what type of traffic, amount of it, frequency etc?.

Albury Airport is a freight and RPT hub in Regional NSW, operated by the Albury City Council. There's some photos on Wikipedia.

 

According to the council stats:-

 

• 300,000 passengers per annum
   
   
  
• Over 200 flights per week.
   
   
  
• Second busiest regional airport in NSW.
   
   
  
• RPT by Quantaslink, Virgin, Rex and Bridabella airlines.
   
   
  

 

 

There's also charters, a GA Flying School and Club there. I plan on flying into one of their breakfasts this summer when I can get in and out before the tower opens.

 

I flew over last new year's day, which would have been fairly quiet... heard two RPT flights while I was in the area. Didn't have time to land as I was facing a 45kn head wind to fly out of CTA boundary before activation. Weather wasn't great that day and we were keeping a weather eye on a couple of storms.