Controlled Airspace

[winsor68]

Its the same up here... we have towered and non-towered airports.... and all the space in between is populated by Ra-Aus and GA and RPT and the sky doesn't fall in... it isn't more unsafe because Ra-Aus is mixed in... I did 6 hours Xcountry the other week and saw several GA aircraft that shouldn't have been there if radio comms are any indication...

 

 

[kaz3g]

"There are heaps of inconsistencies like this. Coffs is Towered Class D, Ballina/Byron Gateway to the north and Port Macquarie to the South all take Airbus/Embraier/QL Dash 8's in about the same qty's per day and are without Tower in Class G. Tamworth on the otherhand from an RPT perspective has a smaller amount of traffic and only QL Dash 8's from memory but is towered as Coffs..."

Two things seem to be missing from the discussion:

 

1. the number of aerodromes operating in Class D has recently increased and the likelihood is it will continue to do so as CASA strengthens its grip on all things "safety"; and
    
    
   
2. the number of airfields providing the essentials - avgas, toilet, drinking water - appears to be reducing.
    
    
   

 

 

It seems to me that CASA will also be aware of the inconsistencies mentioned above and will act to address them in ways that many of us will not, but no doubt RPT will, appreciate.

 

No-one should be under any illusions... CASA is there for the big operators first and foremost. And the one-time national airline recently made no bones of its thoughts about the rest of us wealthy types with our toys

 

http://www.aopa.com.au/information-centre/aopa-news/2011/06/09/qantas-misguided-about-general-aviation/

 

kaz

 

 

[Mazda]

Tomo the majority of aircraft in D do not have TCAS!

 

Ha Gibbo, our militay koalas don't like flying around GA either! Not like overseas where fighters fly around in Class G at low level.

 

 

[Tomo]

Tomo the majority of aircraft in D do not have TCAS!Ha Gibbo, our militay koalas don't like flying around GA either! Not like overseas where fighters fly around in Class G at low level.

I know Mazda!

 

Actually, plenty of fighters flying around low level in G in Aus... or is that just around our place? They've been doing it every day of this week so far, and last week was good too.

 

 

[winsor68]

Don't worry Ignition.. I don't reckon we need to have CTA endo's.. I wouldn't need one myself. I just reckon CTA and CASA need to get themselves organized and keep those RPT full of Passengers away from us... there is plenty of sky for all of us if we just share... and whether we fly under the watchful eye of controllers or not we should be able to do it with the utmost safety... to my mind the controllers make things safer... not all control tower areas should be off limits to Ra-Aus endo or not... maybe they need to fix the airspace...

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

Andy is absolutely correct here, CASA will eat you alive and as we say it "rip you a NEW one" and then fine you and in the end of it all, we ( RAA types ) will all miss out. I am a lucky one, i have a CPL and am an Air Traffic Controller with my own Fisher MK1 ( drifter type aircraft ) i have obtained CASA approval 9 times to enter / transit CTA. For the most part it is like trying to get your wife's approval to buy that new aircraft or similar, you have to have a good argument / reason, backed with documentation and details, follow up with calls and emails to the relevent officer, CASA will help us but we need to do all the leg work and give them what they need. I have never had a request denied, a few times they have asked for greater detail or more information. I am sure that the great folks at RAA will get us a training package approved by CASA for RAA aircraft, then trained pilots will be able to enter some CTA/CTZ 's. You have to remember, a jet will come back to 140kts over the ground within 5nm from the threshold ( at best ) they need to be on a stable approach and don't have the cockpit resourses to be looking for one of us. Take into account, everything on Approach and Tower frequency is recorded as is all the data from Radar and flight planning etc, we must report all errors etc, that means if you turn the wrong way, bust a level etc, you will get reported, make sure you know what you are doing and where you are going. The best advice i can offer is, go with someone else and be their eyes and radio operator, get a taste of it and then try it your self ( with all the right approvals ). If in doubt, ASK, request guidance or advise us that you are unfamiliar with the local area / taxiways. We are there to help and keep it safe for all. You must know your stuff though, know and understand runway marking and signs, phraseology and be prepared for holding and waiting for the right spot to get your turn. As long winded and complex as it may be, read as much of AIP as you can ( available online for free ) or buy your CFI a beer or two and chew his /her ears off, they can tell you a world of information that may just help.

 

I think there is a place for everyone in the sky, just be prepared to work for it and don't expect to cut circuits at Sydney international airport or any other major airport. However, you can expect to transit some controlled areas or even land at some regional airports like Coffs, Mackay or Sunshine Coast. I recently worked at MAckay airport where they have Skyfox Gazel ( VH reg ) aircraft operating, the aircraft is no different to an RAA aircraft physically. I hope our board can keep up the fight for the many pilots out there that can and want to fly safer and shorter routes in and around CTA.

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

I find the Tower at Karrtha interesting. Pilots are required to advise their position as there is no equiped radar in operation. Tower operator scans the skies with her/his binos and clears the traffic in and out and through. I suppose that's common around the country, though thought it would make more sense to have it operating similiar to the way how they will do Alice Springs AP.

It's not that common actually, ASA has over the years spent bucket loads of money installing and maintaining radar sites throughout the country, but much like our roads, the most used routes have the widest and best surfaces etc, but smaller and less used areas have less equipment. The same with the outback areas, Broome for example is getting a new tower and Karatha has had millions spent on it for a refurbishment. Someone has to pay for it and that is the airlines and their passangers.

 

Apparantly there is no fixed establishment threshold for introducing a control tower, interestingly, there is a passanger per year threshold for installing a Rescue and Firefighting Facility, go figure. I'm sure that is a question for CASA to answer, preferably on live TV with the Minister for Tranport and the Australian public watching ? And there are not many people out there who want to go to places like Karatha where the average 3 BRM house rents for $2500 per WEEK ( i am not kidding ). The mining boom / explosion has resulted in the opening of these two towers, Avalon in Melbourne was a bit of political pressure and some Arse covering ( i think ) but well needed tower. As for a CAGRA or UNICOM, someone has to pay for this stuff, the equipment and staff all costs lots of money. Who will pay, only the user can be charged that means us.

 

 

[coljones]

Thanks Patrick.

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

Even if it were operated by the local flying school for the brief periods that RPT are coming and going. Surely that couldn't cost ASA too much for the additional safety it would provide to the travelling public not to mention RA & GA.

If there is no control tower and no controlled airspace then anyone can enter/depart or transit ( as long as you are lic. rego etc ), HOWEVER ( isn't there always a however ), the airport owner can restrict who uses what when and how ( just look at Proserpine airport ), this is a fine sticking point, and a hard legal standpoint, your overhead in your J230 with 4 POB and the noise stops, ERSA says you can't land there but there is nowhere else safer to go ? You would be fine to land in their carpark but not on the runway ? ( Give me a break ). Sorry to say, Local flying schools while great at what they do, can't do what ATC does, and there may be a conflict of interest there also, the low traffic airports like Lismore etc, can take any aircraft, but we must remember, a B737 etc runs at a high cost compared to our aircraft and we MUST make way for their activities and don't forget the ever increasing security requirements that change when an RPT aircraft is on the apron ( depending on it's size , at the moment ).

 

Just so you know, an ATC is tested twice a year on a practical exam and once a year on a written exam, if we make a mistake we are taken off the console, scrutenised and in most cases returned to the console after remedial training / checking or counciling for the event. This is a highly regulated and scrutenised environment ( as it must be to ensure the highest level of safety ), this is not something a flying school can take on. If a local airfield is busy, then hopefully the owner / operator has a fly friendly / standard operating proceedure to be followed to try and minimise the risk, keep it safe and provide the best system to suite the pilots, residents and other interested stakeholders. A while back, i managed an airport in outback WA ( this is where i built my Fisher MK1 ), we had 18 RPT flight by B717, F100 and Bae146 aircraft per week plus 9 B1900 and 4 F50 aircraft per week, as well as multiple light aircraft all working to make a living, i however was just out having a jolly, good airmanship will have you stay out of their way and let them have it first, great airmanship will help them to get what they need, for example - wait a few minutes until they have arrived and then join final, let them taxi and depart first or depart and make an early turn to get out of their way ( if safe to do so ) and always communicate ( they are not our wives, they DON'T know what we are thinking all the time ) so let them know and don't use local slang, i once heard a guy say he was 2nm south of Dicko's shed, now what map or chart will i find that on ?

 

 

[winsor68]

Hi Patrick and welcome to the forums...

 

You are the magical Fisher Flying Controller I have heard so much about but never managed to catch up with in Mackay (getting info on Ra-Aus flying in the region used to be like pulling teeth!)... but you will be happy to know that in the last 18 months an Ra-Aus school has struggled into life. I have just completed my certificate out of Palmyra (with plenty of flying at Bowen, Clermont and a few others as Palmyra as I am sure you know has a few challenges)... It was a shame to here that you have left the region.

 

You will be happy to know that Proserpine has dropped the "No Ultralights" clause and is open to Ra-Aus now...

 

I was going to ask... what would you consider an appropriate reason to request CTA clearance from CASA? I don't need or want CTA access necessarily but I am buggered if I can work out (in my very limited experience) how Mackay suddenly becomes safer when the tower opens when RPT are departing before the opening with Ra-Aus legally allowed to mix it with them during this time... and the same in RPT Alley just north of Mackay on the approach to Proserpine... Doesn't seem as safe as it should be...There is plenty of airspace up here to enjoy as far as I can see without needing CTA access but it would be nice to visit the occasional Aeroclub day at the Club at Mackay Airport during the day... Would a flying club event (say access in and out to start a Nav Comp) be an acceptable reason to apply for a clearance from CASA?

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

I know Mazda! Actually, plenty of fighters flying around low level in G in Aus... or is that just around our place? They've been doing it every day of this week so far, and last week was good too.

Winsor68, yep that was me, and as for a reason, any is good enough, it will be for a one off per letter of authority, on the day or within the date range specified and to be within the required paramaters. I did it on my birthday while i was there, flew down from Lakeside in the morning, worked the day and then flew out to Marian and then Finch Hatton, back over the airport and up the coast to look at some whales. The aero comp would be a perfect reason, Nav ex ok too. I rang and got some advise and then submitted my request, give yourself plenty of time 30 days plus is best.

That is great news about Prossy, they had no real legal leg to stand on and it was a knee jerk reaction to an accident many years ago.

 

I think we should all remember that ATC and TCAS and CTA etc are all systems in place to mitigate the risk of collision in various airspace, different services are provided in the various classes and this is based on the types and concentration of traffic that use the areas. Proserpine will not get ATC until they are doing far greater than 50 RPT type movements per DAY everyday, it just wont happen, that's why we have SEE AND AVOID and Communication systems required within CTAF R's such as Proserpine. We as pilots should know what is going on around us and provide timely information to those who may want to use the same airspace as us. I have a perfect war story for this :-

 

One very fine morning i was out in my Fisher enjoying the coastal run from Laguna to Cape Hillsborough for a landing on the sand ( below the high tide water line, of course ) when i heard 2 F111's coming up from Mackay low level and fast. They were not on a LJR ( low jet route ) they were just on a jolly from Rockhampton to Townsville ( wouldn't you if you could 400kts at 200ft ? ) They made an all stations call just out of Mackay CTA and i responded with position etc etc, we devised a safe way to pass eachother and to ensure their wake turbulance didn't see me wrapped up in Purple and Yellow Dacron with alliuminium tubes sticking out of the most uncomfortable places. If they didn't make their call and i wasn't listening or responding, it would have been very nasty.

 

But this is the nature of our airspace, see and bee seen, broadcast and be heard, there is losts to be said for our system, i feel it is adequate for the majority and we must learn to live within it's rules. However, where there is a rule there is a way to bypass it, in this case you need to do some leg work, but this is something special YOU want that others can't have unless they do the work too. Let's not forget that different airspace has different requirements, Class D is the easiest, equipment wise, all you need is a reliable 2 way comms, no transponder ( it will help with CASA and ATC ) and the rest is as per the exemptions you ask for and get from CASA.

 

I have been through Tindal, Cairns, Darwin, Mackay, Melbourne Approach, Amberley Approach airspace and some airfields, it can be done, it is one of our rights as aviators, but we must first gain permission to do so. Lastly, just because you get the letter from CASA and you have done everything right on the day, don't just expect a clearance straight away and the way you want it from ATC, there are many factors that will influence your clearance. If anyone wants help or advise regarding this, i am more than happy to help. We are not the only ones that have restrictions placed on us, just any War Bird Pilot / owner, i had a guy at Essendon when i worked there, he had a realy nice Jet Provost, however he had incredible restrictions placed on him operating into or out of Essendon, there are 2 runways with 2 directions ( so 4 runways so to speak ), he was only allowed to use one for departure and the opposite end for arrivals. He could have moved his aircraft to another airport where he would have had NO restrictions, but he wanted to use Essendon, and why not, he is entitled to, but he must comply with the special rules for him.

 

 

[Mazda]

Patrick CASA does use tower establishment and disestablishment criteria, hence the changes over recent years. There is still work to do though.

 

The intent of the CAGRO was a very low cost option but it was modified for operators to be controllers/FSOs which of course made it expensive. UNICOM is a zero cost option. There does not need to be any special person there, just the refueller, airline agent, groundsman, flying instructor etc. All they need to do is look out of the window and be on frequency around the time the RPTs come in.

 

(PS: There is no such thing as a CTAF R!)

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Zero cost, but where does the buck stop when the rpt drives through the windscreen of a jab the "re fueler" didn't see??

 

 

[Mazda]

They don't provide separation Motz, and for your information depending on the type of flight and airspace, controllers don't necessarily provide separation either.

 

Think of it this way. If there is a separation service at every airport, for a start no one could afford it, and no RA-Aus could fly in anyway.

 

A UNICOM operator responding to a radio call confirms the radio is working and on frequency. A UNICOM operator can say "There's a Cessna in the circuit which doesn't appear to be on frequency, it's base for 06", or "there's a glider to the south" or "there are showers to the east" or "The RPT just landed used runway 06 but the wind is favouring 24", "An aircraft just took off through the fog towards the north" (it happens) etc. You then know your radio is working and you gain a picture of what is going on. All of that, for free. As pilot in command, you can take the information or leave it.

 

The alternative is to have nothing. A CTAF without even confirmation that your own radio is working and on frequency (even if there is an AFRU, it has limitations).

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

I know Mazda! Actually, plenty of fighters flying around low level in G in Aus... or is that just around our place? They've been doing it every day of this week so far, and last week was good too.

I think you will find almost all RPT aircraft will have TCAS, it is becoming a required piece of equipment for all RPT. But in Class D airspace ( most regional towers ) no radar control means no need for a transponder, it will be of a great assistance to the controllers as they will see you on their TSAD ( Tower Situational Awearness Display ) a poor mans radar which is what almost all NON radar towers have, and when you are slow, with a very small profile it is extreamly hard to see from the tower, even with bino's. A Cirrus at 5nm is harder to see than an Airbus at 40nm, so a transponder will make a world of difference. If i could afford one, i would have it in my aircraft.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

yea Mazda, I know what your saying. Unicoms work great, but its hard to legislate the refueller, or the guy looking out the window at traffic.

 

 

[ahlocks]

and Unicoms don't tend to remain mute while trying to dodge landing fees.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Sweet CFI, lets just hand out handheld VHF radios to anyone who lives near an airfield and let them direct traffic.

 

 

[Tomo]

Requesting the status of an aerodrome isn't all that hard if you know there is movement there. I have been asked a couple of times by larger aircraft what the wind direction was etc... Just because they heard my taxi call or cct call and they called me up to ask what it was like. One time I was flying the Drifter in a cct and a Kingair driver inbound called me up to see which way the wind was blowing and how strong.

 

That to me is just as effective as a Unicom operator.

 

 

[winsor68]

Sweet CFI, lets just hand out handheld VHF radios to anyone who lives near an airfield and let them direct traffic.

There are plenty of experienced people who would be able to run such a service (think of the VFR, or flight Schools who could collect some fees)... the most important part of this is... for a very mild cost... it would add to safety as it stands not take anything away.

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

The CTAF R 's were in places like Proserpine, a non towered aerodrome in class G airspace that have at least one RPT service per week, as per the below

 

NFRM 0908OS - Carriage and Use of Radio and Circuit Procedures at, or in the Vicinity of, Non-towered Aerodromes - Amendments to CARs 166 & 166A

 

This was all ratified on June 3rd 2010 and incorporated into the Certified / Uncertified and registered Aerodromes classification structure ( as well as military ) when they are non towered.

 

I like the idea, and hopefully if a refueller is not busy and see's or hears something "off" he would pipe in and try to help out, but what if he is busy and there are 4 or so lighties waiting for the Dash 8 to land at XXX airport, who is helping out then ? Is the refueller in some way "at Fault" where is the duty of care in this case. I like the system we have, i feel safe that when i approach an aerodrome once at 10nm i make the required radio calls and that anyone else in or about to use the area is also on the freq and responds with their intent ( is safe to do so ), so it is just the uncertified airfields that we must be extra vigilent at, no requirement for 2 way coms equipment in aircraft. However, the aerodrome operator can make it a requirement that aircraft have VHF comms but i don't see this as a very likely solution. I think it would be a great fix if ALL aircraft were required to carry a servicable VHF radio and were also required to make radio calls, there is a burdon of cost to those who don't have radio equipment as yet, but this is a cost the owner / operator should be prepared to pay to enjoy the privilage of flight ( all types of flight ).

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

Requesting the status of an aerodrome isn't all that hard if you know there is movement there. I have been asked a couple of times by larger aircraft what the wind direction was etc... Just because they heard my taxi call or cct call and they called me up to ask what it was like. One time I was flying the Drifter in a cct and a Kingair driver inbound called me up to see which way the wind was blowing and how strong.That to me is just as effective as a Unicom operator.

Tomo, i think it is more the case of great airmanship, and as Mazda has said we can all help, the refueller, the flying school etc, but the pilot in command must make the call as to the validity and acuracy of the information. It is often said about me. i love the sound of my own voice, but i have no problems informing other pilots as to my position, the weather, a pod of whales off the coast etc, we are a fraternity and as such should hold the interests of all participants in high sted.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Yep, i fully understand and appreciate the values of a good unicom. But i think theres one dude who should be controlling air traffic, and thats an air traffic controller, this thread after all, was started by someone requesting info on the status of the RAA CTA endo.

 

Im all for an information service provided by someone on the ground, but I think if pilots start relying on or expecting accurate cct numbers/positions and inbound aircraft etc, we would, in the long run, suffer for it.

 

 

[winsor68]

All airports should have a full time safety officer in my opinion... and damn the cost! But then... I am a dreamer.

 

 

[winsor68]

So... could someone clarify here and perhaps a little of topic (Patrick I am guessing you would understand what happened?)...

 

Apparently Dick Smith closed the Tower at Prossy when he was CASA Boss... but isn't he now also saying that Proserpine is a dangerous airport for RPT? Or am I mistaken here. How did that work?