Class D Airspace

[winsor68]

You're right. The majority of Class D airspace is associated with the old GAAP aerodromes and it is relatively small. I think the restrictions exist purely because it's controlled, there's a controller there and you need to be able to abide by his instructions (reason for medical), RA-Aus planes are generally less reliable because of self maintenance and pilots aren't trained to fly in controlled airspace! When the controller's not there it's exactly like flying at a non towered aerodrome, you make the decisions yourself. There's also different VFR minima for Class D and other control zones.The exemptions that exist enforce L2 maintenance on the aircraft (as they should have anyway since they're training a/c) so if you were expecting a CTA endorsement, expect L2/LAME maintenance as a requirement. Professional maintenance is something I strongly believe in for CTA flying, especially in built up areas.

 

-Andrew

How can maintenance and medicals be an issue only during the business hours of the tower if they are such a necessity for safety? Thursday I had a wonderful and legal flight... I was over my house late on base (I live near the city heart) and did a beautiful touch and go as a Boeing, Airbus and 2 Dash's were boarding in preparation for early departure... It was just after 0630... we hightailed it out after the one pass and headed over the Marina and up the Northern Suburbs and headed home via Seaforth... all nice, safe and legal with proper radio procedures...

The tower opens at 0720... Does a medical make this safer? By how much?

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

D class isnt alway 2-3nm wide, Coffs class D surface ring is 7nm in radius and the 1000ft ring 12nm in radius. the 12nm ring prevents us passing to the east over the ocean (cause I cant glide from 7nm and 1000ft) and the 7nm ring puts us up into the hills and tiger country.

 

12nm = 22km, 2km beyond the limitation we have to go out to sea.

 

I accept in many cases that a class D would cause about 0 impact to someone wanting to transit, Tamworth is a reasonable example of that its easy to go around, but Coffs isnt, The hilly country to the west is tiger country and high enough that on days with lowish cloud you cant get around, ignoring the tiger country, and stay legal wrt VFR minima's.

 

If Port Macquarie and Ballina had the same type of airspace, given the similar RPT traffic levels, then I could understand it, but they dont which annoys me heaps.

 

And then to make matters worse, the approach corridor to the north of the airfield isnt even aligned with Runway direction, rather it is offset in bearing closer to North than the runways 030 which means that coming from the North heading south you have to scud run and then turn inland much earlier than you should have to if it was naturally aligned with the runway direction...

 

All of which, from my perspective make my risk worse than it should be, in the name of safety.....

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest Jake.f]

I was flying near those mountains you have to pass the other day, I really really would not like to be trying to get across them while remaining out of CTA. It is just plain dangerous.

 

 

[old man emu]

Seeker: I had no intention of attacking you. I just thought others might do so, therefore I was giving you a heads-up.

 

You are very lucky to apparently have very busy airports over in the West. I was just making a point that even Col seems to agree with. Camden Airport is not a hive of activity during the week. Admittedly it is on the weekends, and Sat & Sun used to be the only days the tower operated, leaving Mon to Fri open to all comers. That's why I made the comment about the guy in the tower having to try to fill his shift by reading or whatever.

 

Oh, and by the way. Before you start taking potshots at people, read what has been said. This is what I said:

 

"I work for a GA LAME, who is also an L2 for the sake of any RAA owners who require service. Obviously, I'd like my plane serviced by him" I never said that I wanted to do the servicing.

 

If you want to have something to bitch about, how's this: An RAA L2 doesn't hold a candle to CASA approved LAME with over 40 years' experience.

 

OME

 

 

[sseeker]

Maybe I shouldn't bite...I have done 10 yrs RAAF Avionics. Then CASA state I have to I have to sit all of their exams and prove I am fit to be an AME... not even LAME!! Cause Military planes can't fly inthe real world... Add to that I have a background in electronics, electrical & aviation. I can aircraft install 10 times better than a home-built guy (no offence), & I am more tech-savvy than most.. I have steered away from aviation for work as there is no money in it and everyone wants it done on the cheap..

and I know I would be 10 times more diligent on my aircraft....

 

Sorry I took offense to the :

 

but yes, I am over qualified but not recognised. Welcome to the real world FFS!! End Rant....

"If you have the experience then sure, but you have to be able to prove it by attaining L2 qualification, if you don't then it means nothing! "

 

By the way you explain your plethora of experience you would have no worries obtaining L2 authorisation (possibly line maintenance only?) which is what I quoted above. IF you've been rejected by CASA and RA-Aus then maybe you should ask yourself why... Sorry if you took offence to it but there's people out there who truly think they're amazing when they're not. I bet you've met some as well.

 

How can maintenance and medicals be an issue only during the business hours of the tower if they are such a necessity for safety? Thursday I had a wonderful and legal flight... I was over my house late on base (I live near the city heart) and did a beautiful touch and go as a Boeing, Airbus and 2 Dash's were boarding in preparation for early departure... It was just after 0630... we hightailed it out after the one pass and headed over the Marina and up the Northern Suburbs and headed home via Seaforth... all nice, safe and legal with proper radio procedures...The tower opens at 0720... Does a medical make this safer? By how much?

Your right, if RPT is operating prior to towering operating hours then it would be a useless requirement for a medial in Class D. However transiting through when the tower is open and is directing RPT and other IFR traffic around and you don't hold a medical, you haven't been assessed on your health condition what happens when you have a heart attack over a city centre? You lose conciousness and hit a Dash 8 carrying 70 PAX? Then John McCormick will really send us back to the weeds!

 

Seeker: I had no intention of attacking you. I just thought others might do so, therefore I was giving you a heads-up.

My comment was intended directly at you, it was for everyone reading my posts.

 

Oh, and by the way. Before you start taking potshots at people, read what has been said. This is what I said:"I work for a GA LAME, who is also an L2 for the sake of any RAA owners who require service. Obviously, I'd like my plane serviced by him" I never said that I wanted to do the servicing.

Sorry, I misread that. Just as you misunderstood my prior comment. People make mistakes, my bad.

 

If you want to have something to bitch about, how's this: An RAA L2 doesn't hold a candle to CASA approved LAME with over 40 years' experience.

Me bitch? I've heard nothing but moaning about CTA rights and quite frankly it's annoying me.

 

1. Medical

 

2. Serviced transponder

 

3. Radio

 

3. L2/LAME Maintenance

 

4. Appropriate training

 

5. Approved engine

 

If all of those are ticked I think a CTA endorsement should be allowed!

 

The AUF was around before I was born, but at least I can understand the true definition of "Recreational Aviation" - if you really want CTA the SAAA is pushing for an exemption for the experimental category and even they understand that CTA transiting is dangerous which is why they elected to have a safety pilot on board if they are exempt from a medical.

 

I think this constant pushing for more rights should stop before we become a replica of GA, what would be the point in that? After CTA all we'd need is 750kg, 4 seats and we'd be called GA! Hell do you want an aerobatics rating next?

 

-Andrew

 

 

[winsor68]

Your right, if RPT is operating prior to towering operating hours then it would be a useless requirement for a medial in Class D. However transiting through when the tower is open and is directing RPT and other IFR traffic around and you don't hold a medical, you haven't been assessed on your health condition what happens when you have a heart attack over a city centre? You lose conciousness and hit a Dash 8 carrying 70 PAX? Then John McCormick will really send us back to the weeds!

-Andrew

I was sharing the air with RPT... They Boeing rolled as I took off followed closely by the Dash's... all while the Tower was still closed... we communicated using proper Radio procedure... the only thing the tower being open would add to is safety in this situation.... not that I am saying that I want to fly in CTA necessarily.... Regardless of whether I was over a city or in the same airspace as a Boeing. As I say just north where there is no CTA and Tower the same thing happens... I share the airspace with Boeing's and there are built up areas you can legally fly over. Its my opinion that a Medical has nothing to do with it... it only really affects my and my passengers safety for the most part... and to be honest more control towers would be nice because they add to safety rather than make it more dangerous.

 

 

[sseeker]

In WA you can hardly get over a city centre without infringing CTA. There are of course suburbs you can fly over but I'm talking my central capital city wise. CASA has medicals for a reason, they're not there to rip you off.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[djpacro]

Hell do you want an aerobatics rating next?

"Hell" - I assume the pre-aer0batic check? Aerobatics was in the last draft of the Part 103 reg that I saw.

[old man emu]

Andrew,

 

Please read Post #6 in this thread. I am writing of the stupidity of a Class D airspace, in that I could quite legally operate an RAA reg'd airplane from a site just a little further than 2 Nm from a Tower Controlled Class D Federally owned airport, but I could only cross into that area between 1600 one day and 0800 the next, and that the Class D airspace was a circular area with a radius of 2NM. Further, I could fly right over the top of that airspace at any height between 2000 and 4500' without infringing it.

 

What you must understand is that the east coast has the population, but aviation facilities here are being diminished both by the expansion of residential development and the consequent NIMBY attitudes of the people who knowingly choose to buy their houses near airports, then whinge and bitch about the noise, danger of aircraft plummeting from the air and all sorts of Greenie agenda. This lack of facilities is killing both GA and recreational aviation quicker than any pilot's death by heart attack.

 

And for your information, in the past ten years there have been five fatalities within close proximity to Camden Airport. Two were within the area of the Class D and three (2 from one incident) were just outside but involving flights originating at Camden. These were all in GA aircraft, and one was directly as a result of a heart attack (curiously enough in an aerobatic aricraft - but it was only in a transit flight between Camden and Bankstown).

 

OME

 

 

[av8vfr]

@ sseeker:

 

Well, totally off topic which I apologise but to the response:

 

By the way you explain your plethora of experience you would have no worries obtaining L2 authorisation (possibly line maintenance only?) which is what I quoted above. IF you've been rejected by CASA and RA-Aus then maybe you should ask yourself why... Sorry if you took offence to it but there's people out there who truly think they're amazing when they're not. I bet you've met some as well.

I never stated that I have been rejected, in fact I couldn't be bothered applying. Why is it acceptable that I can maintain supersonic military aircraft but have to re-learn / test all the B/S to maintain a Cessna...

You would probably find the majority of switched-on aviation techs don't work for bananas... only the monkeys do. You do the maths... This time ...End Rant...

 

 

[sseeker]

@ sseeker:...End Rant...

You sure do rant a lot!

 

so your a SAAA member ss...?

Nope, I got an email in circulation from one of our club members regarding their push for a medical exemption. I have the PDF if you'd like it.

 

-Andrew

 

 

[Griffinx2]

Professional maintenance is something I strongly believe in for CTA flying, especially in built up areas.-Andrew

Experimental GA aircraft that are owned by the original builder can have all maintenance carried out by the builder, the aircraft wont have any certified parts in it but as far as i know as long as the aircraft has the appropriate Radios, transponder etc there are absolutely no restrictions on it.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

@ sseeker:Well, totally off topic which I apologise but to the response:

I never stated that I have been rejected, in fact I couldn't be bothered applying. Why is it acceptable that I can maintain supersonic military aircraft but have to re-learn / test all the B/S to maintain a Cessna...

 

You would probably find the majority of switched-on aviation techs don't work for bananas... only the monkeys do. You do the maths... This time ...End Rant...

Ditto...It was Ok that I worked on F111 aircraft on the line, terrain following radar etc and then all the P3 orion stuff in the workshop and all the associated radio gear, and had an assdip eleceng as the formal training but work on GA aircraft no way cause everyone knows that a Cessna has seriously more complicated avionics, and anyway the electronic principles on which GA aviation is based is clearly not the same as military electronic principles.......I considered my options for a full 10seconds and said Ok, I'll leave this protected industry to the protected few, who can scratch out a living till it all implodes from the over regulated and protected assult on owners wallets and I'll use the skills in other areas, none of which I regret for one moment.....That all said my beast is 19 registered for a very good reason....off to the shed for my tools....pay money to a LAME or a L2, not fr&kn likely (at least for the areas that I'm skilled in) !!

 

Andy

 

 

[Thirsty]

I reckon there are other reasons than the technical side for CASA wanting Military tradesmen to pass the civilian tests to gain their licence. Probably something to do with the military culture and the methodology the military use to train their tradesmen. I'm ex RAAF and started doing exams to obtain my licence but then changed careers and went IT. Being a good LAME/L2 isn't just about technical knowledge, it's also about being able to apply what you know.

 

Not teaching you to suck eggs, just my take on that issue.

 

 

[facthunter]

There is an important factor going for the owner-servicer, and that is that it is his neck that's in it, so he is motivated to do the job safely.

 

There is no need to rush the job either, ( no commercial pressures) and you can search out data.

 

On the flip side you shouldn't TOUCH the thing if you don't know what you are doing.

 

Groups of people who own particular aircraft types and share their knowledge, significantly advance the safe operation of that type.

 

Educational seminars are a good idea. Learn the skills from the right people. They are a bit hard to find so look after them when you do.

 

Learning about your aeroplane is very much a part of the movement.

 

Not everybody wants the responsibility or has the aptitude.

 

There has to ba a complete alternative path for the maintenance to be done.

 

That is via a LAME or an L2.

 

You can't expect these people to work for less than the mechanics who work on your car. They have more responsibility, and if you or somebody else has been fiddling with it , they often have to check that also. Search out your mechanic as you would a doctor/ carpenter/ instructor etc ( carefully).

 

You have to establish a relationship of trust. Nothing's perfect. I have had bits left loose etc that could have easily killed me, by very qualified people. Nev

 

 

[Guernsey]

I'm with you Jake![ATTACH=full]14541[/ATTACH]

 

Angry Old Man Emu

Sorry OFF TOPIC . Love the photo, how about using it for your Avatar....you look much better when you'r smiling.

 

Alan.

 

 

[aj_richo]

I considered my options for a full 10seconds and said Ok, I'll leave this protected industry to the protected few, who can scratch out a living till it all implodes from the over regulated and protected assult on owners wallets..Andy

Andy, you got it one, blame the Unions! They were behind a concerted effort to keep ex-military personnel out of the airline industry. They were declaring with exodus of RAAF personnel leaving (post Vietnam wind down and attrition in the late 70's early 80's) we'd come in and take the members protected jobs, so they campaigned military training was basically task orientated and not a trade per se, therefore not comprehensive enough to be a LAME. The only pathway open, as you know, was to redo ALL the theory exams from scratch.. no full or partial RPL credits at all. At Parafield TAFE around that time, ex RAAF blokes were teaching the modules for guys to retake the exams!! Has kind of back fired a little on them in the last decade or so, with the industry complaining about a lack of LAME personnel but there you go.

With the amount of turmoil in the Industry since deregulation in '89, glad I kept out of it!

 

Richo

 

 

[Wayne T Mathews]

There is an important factor going for the owner-servicer, and that is that it is his neck that's in it, so he is motivated to do the job safely.There is no need to rush the job either, ( no commercial pressures) and you can search out data.

On the flip side you shouldn't TOUCH the thing if you don't know what you are doing.

 

Groups of people who own particular aircraft types and share their knowledge, significantly advance the safe operation of that type.

 

Educational seminars are a good idea. Learn the skills from the right people. They are a bit hard to find so look after them when you do.

 

Learning about your aeroplane is very much a part of the movement.

 

Not everybody wants the responsibility or has the aptitude.

 

There has to ba a complete alternative path for the maintenance to be done.

 

That is via a LAME or an L2.

 

You can't expect these people to work for less than the mechanics who work on your car. They have more responsibility, and if you or somebody else has been fiddling with it , they often have to check that also. Search out your mechanic as you would a doctor/ carpenter/ instructor etc ( carefully).

 

You have to establish a relationship of trust. Nothing's perfect. I have had bits left loose etc that could have easily killed me, by very qualified people. Nev

Well said Nev...

 

Keep the sunny side up,

 

Wayne.

 

 

[Patrick Normoyle]

This is i fear a loosing battle, we can get an exemption to operate in CTR D and CTA D but it is a very long and drawn out process with CASA, it is only for a Certified aircraft with a Certified engine and operated by day by a pilot with a CURRENT PPL or better. You must give CASA 28 days advance notice and expect to be acked a bunch of additional questions and to provide evidence of your qualifications. I have done this a few times now, in Mackay, Darwin, Cairns, it can be done but it is very time consuming, also it is for a one off, you have to apply every time you want to go in. The first time is always the hardest, after that it gets easier. Tony from CASA was very helpful ( don't know his last name ) but he has moved onto greener pastures.

 

I understood that RAA schools could train in CTA D and CTR D but that was all, i didn't think you could hire and fly from there unless it was for training / BFR or other activities under supervision ? I agree there are several places where it should be multi-user even with ATC. At Mackay for example, they have a Skyfox Gazelle with VH rego that operates in the class D all day long, the beast does 40 kts on the ground on final into a stiff sea breaze, ae E170 or B737 can come back to about 120 kts but they are hanging onto it very loosly and have almost no margin, and to go around from that would have you shit your shorts in a big way. This is one of many reasons why RAA aircraft are not allowed in. Also, there is alot of ignorance on CASA's side as to the level of proficiency and excellent training afforded many RAA pilots by our CFI etc, but also there is alot of ignorance within our ranks of pilots that make it difficult for CASA to say let everyone play in the sand pit together. Unfortunately a line had to be drawn and we were the big looser. I feel for the guys in the plastic fantastic's, their aircraft are capable of mixing it with most light GA types and they would prefer the better prepared surfaces i'm sure, but they have to use rougher strips.

 

I know this is an area currently being worked on by our board and tech staff, we have to be patient ( i don't do that very well myself ).

 

 

[fatmal]

I understood that RAA schools could train in CTA D and CTR D but that was all, i didn't think you could hire and fly from there unless it was for training / BFR or other activities under supervision ?

I have a (3 weeks old) CTA endorsement for Jandakot, from doing my RAA Nav training there with CloudDancer in their Sporty (7548), and so long as my Class 2 medical and BFR are current I can rent their plane and go for a fly! Whether I'd be able to take my own (24 registered) aircraft in there I haven't tested (yet!).

 

On the form for the Nav endorsement my instructor also checked the 'CTA' box, and there is an entry in my logbook for CTA - limited to Jandakot only.

 

Mal

 

 

[David Isaac]

Interesting Mal.

 

So are you saying that you need a Class 2 medical to do RAA training at Jandakot?

 

 

[David Isaac]

This is i fear a loosing battle, we can get an exemption to operate in CTR D and CTA D but it is a very long and drawn out process with CASA, it is only for a Certified aircraft with a Certified engine and operated by day by a pilot with a CURRENT PPL or better. You must give CASA 28 days advance notice and expect to be acked a bunch of additional questions and to provide evidence of your qualifications. I have done this a few times now, in Mackay, Darwin, Cairns, it can be done but it is very time consuming, also it is for a one off, you have to apply every time you want to go in. The first time is always the hardest, after that it gets easier. Tony from CASA was very helpful ( don't know his last name ) but he has moved onto greener pastures......

Hi Patrick,

I thought if you were flying a 24 registered Ultralight with a certified engine and you were minimum current PPL, that you could operate into and out of any CTA with appropriate clearance and that no special pre-approval was required other than normal advance notice of intentions (flightplan).

 

 

[fatmal]

Interesting Mal.So are you saying that you need a Class 2 medical to do RAA training at Jandakot?

David,

Yes, you need a class 2 medical, at least to fly solo at YPJT. It wasn't too difficult to get - even this broken-down unhealthy-living laaate 40's bloke passed (probably not with 'flying colours', but a pass is a pass!).

 

It is also my understanding that with a PPL you could operate a suitable 24-registered aircraft in and out of CTA, i.e. the restriction is on the Pilot, not the Aircraft (I'm happy to be corrected by those more knowledgable than myself). That would be the best of both worlds - cheap flying in your RAA aircraft, and if you need more than two seats just rent something.

 

Mal.

 

 

[sseeker]

I obtained my CTA 'endorsement' for 24-7548 with Cloud Dancer when they opened up. Cloud Dancer gives you the right to fly your Ultralight into Jandakot ONLY without a PPL (a medical is a must though) using their exemption however you must do training with them so they can assure themselves you're competent with the airspace. I'm not sure if they charge for the use of their exemption after the training phase though.

 

-Andrew