Converting From 3 Axis to 2 Axis

[peterg]

I have quite a few hours in GA & RAA aircraft and gliders and am interested in trying trikes with the view to purchasing a nano trike.

 

I have contacted a few trike schools (both RAA & HGFA) in Victoria and have received some very different views as to an indicative number of hours to solo in a trike.

 

It appears that the RAA may treat it like a new Pilot Certificate thereby requiring 10 hours minimum training.

 

I am interested in the experience of others who have undertaken a similar transition.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Reckon I'd count on 5 hours as a minimum, but it is really dependent on your flying skills in the trike. Due to the control reversal, an instructor will want to be sure that you don't use the wrong control input at a critical moment when under pressure.

 

It isn't treated like a new Pilot Certificate, but just as a type endorsement. If you want a recommendation, just PM me.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I learnt 3 Axis GA, had a break for 8yrs, learnt Trike and then back to 3 axis.

 

Trike took 22hrs, it wasnt because I was below average, just that in the end it seemed to take a long time until the conditions were sufficiently Ok that the instructor let me loose. Weather conditions are more important with Trikes, the wing loading is very light so gusty winds/turbulence has a more pronounced impact and late spring /early summer in Adelaide can be trying if waiting for the perfect weather.

 

Going back to 3 axis took only about 8hrs, 3 hsr instruction and 5hrs solo as I recall.

 

Andy

 

 

[bushpilot]

I have GA & RAA 3 axis, RAA 2-axis and HGFA 2-axis. Rather than try and minimise hours to 2-axis, work on a minimum of 10 hours. Getting experience in different conditions is a must..

 

 

[.Evan.]

I'd like to try a microlight one day, looks like a great challenge - but great fun, too!

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

I have quite a few hours in GA & RAA aircraft and gliders and am interested in trying trikes with the view to purchasing a nano trike.I have contacted a few trike schools (both RAA & HGFA) in Victoria and have received some very different views as to an indicative number of hours to solo in a trike.

It appears that the RAA may treat it like a new Pilot Certificate thereby requiring 10 hours minimum training.

 

I am interested in the experience of others who have undertaken a similar transition.

No offence intended but don't confuse "easy to fly" with "easy to learn". You are not alone in this - all of the 3-axis to weightshift conversions I have done made the same assumption and underestimated how many hours are required to ensure that the correct actions are instinctive. Whilst not impossible, it would certainly be unusual to reach the required standard in less than 10 hours. Both your instructor (& especially yourself) would be able to make a much better assessment after you've had a flight or two. BTW a new Pilot Certificate requires a minimum of 20 hours - its unlikely to take that long.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[fly_tornado]

I am curious: how exactly do you land crosswind without a rudder?

 

 

[trikepilot]

I have quite a few hours in GA & RAA aircraft and gliders and am interested in trying trikes with the view to purchasing a nano trike.I have contacted a few trike schools (both RAA & HGFA) in Victoria and have received some very different views as to an indicative number of hours to solo in a trike.

 

It appears that the RAA may treat it like a new Pilot Certificate thereby requiring 10 hours minimum training.

 

I am interested in the experience of others who have undertaken a similar transition.

I learnt GA in a Cessna 172 , did aerobatic rating in a Cessna 152 a couple of years after that Then abut 3 years later learnt to fly a trike 10 years later went back to an ultralight and now fly both. The skill to fly a trike is so different to 3 axis and when under pressure landing you have to be careful that GA flying doesnt take over It actually happened to a pilot on his solo and he is now dead! :( So extra hours is worth the dollars spent! Judgement for the flare height is also so much more important than GA

 

 

[facthunter]

I reckon there is always a chance of reversion to the instinctive ( and different ) reactions appropriate to the other type.

 

You have to unlearn or block out those reactions or you are not safe. I really question the desireability of flying two very different types of aircarft at the one time. OK on fine days but at the edge there is no room for a wrong action, or a delayed correct one. Nev

 

 

[Bluey]

I know of one example of control reversal wrecking a trike recently. It can happen very quickly with no chance of recovery for the backseat instructor to prevent the hard landing. It was lucky they didn't roll but many thousands of dollars damage was done to the owners pride and joy. The only thing the pilot has so far said is sorry. I hope his cheque book does some talking soon to help ease the owners burden.

 

Bluey

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

I know of one example of control reversal wrecking a trike recently. It can happen very quickly with no chance of recovery for the backseat instructor to prevent the hard landing. It was lucky they didn't roll but many thousands of dollars damage was done to the owners pride and joy. The only thing the pilot has so far said is sorry. I hope his cheque book does some talking soon to help ease the owners burden.Bluey

Let me guess.... pulled the bar back to flare?

 

 

[facthunter]

Hard habit to beat. 3 axis pilots do it when they shouldn't too. It's a very instinctive action. Nev

 

 

[Bluey]

That's pretty much what happened David. After the round out the pilot shoved the control bar into their chest instead of flaring. Conditions were described as excellent.

 

Bluey.

 

 

[Guest nunans]

Isn't it just like learning another type? eg. in a conventional under carrige plane to land a wheeler you have to push the stick forward as mains touch. If you do that in a tricycle UC plane you'll be wheelbarrowing off the side of the runway and upside down before you know it. So does that mean if you fly tail wheel then you can't also fly tricycle?

 

On a dirtbike you countersteer by turning the bars right to lean for a left corner, but that doesn't mean when the rider gets back in the car to go home he turns the wrong way at the first bend..

 

 

[Guernsey]

Isn't it just like learning another type? eg. in a conventional under carrige plane to land a wheeler you have to push the stick forward as mains touch. If you do that in a tricycle UC plane you'll be wheelbarrowing off the side of the runway and upside down before you know it. So does that mean if you fly tail wheel then you can't also fly tricycle?On a dirtbike you countersteer by turning the bars right to lean for a left corner, but that doesn't mean when the rider gets back in the car to go home he turns the wrong way at the first bend..

In an aircraft you move the control whether it be stick, control column or rudder pedal, in the direction you wish the aircraft to go.

 

In wheelies stick forward to push nose down, three point landing tail wheel aircraft stick back to drop the tail.

 

Tricycle undercarriage same thing, stick back to lower tail.

 

Rudder peddles push right to turn right, push left to turn left.

 

A Trike is reversed....bar forward nose rises, bar back nose dives.

 

Rudder pedals push right aircraft turns left, push left aircraft turns right.

 

The dirtbike example is similar to what you would do when sideslipping an aircraft.

 

Having said all that, if you fly both types regularly there is not usually a problem.

 

Alan.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Isn't it just like learning another type?..

Yes, but one in which the controls are all reversed. Guernsey has expressed it well, but implies that Trikes have rudder pedals, which is an interesting analogy because you do have pedals for ground steering, which are opposite sense to 3-axis, but for flying, you use the control bar and push left to bank right and right to bank left, so also reversed.

If you realise that a Trike has no empennage, and thus no control inputs from either elevators or rudder, then you could imagine that the control frame attached to the wing is a giant yoke and you are hanging onto the bottom of it. Then you can imaging banking control in the same sense as a 3-axis. ie. to bank left, push the bottom of the yoke (below the shaft) to the right. I'm not sure how useful that picture is in reality, as pitch control is still reversed.

 

It certainly isn't impossible. There's a few members here who fly both types with no problems, but I've also heard of a number of people getting into trouble, through reversion to the other type at a critical moment. My CFI flies both, and in the past has also flown rotary wing, multi-engine and jets, just to expand the types even further.

 

On the one occasion, I tried my hand at a tail-dragger (Drifter), I found even taxiing very difficult, despite being acutely aware that the steering was opposite sense. I was definitely zig-zagging down the runway!

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Trikes have rudders?

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Trikes have rudders?

Wouldn't that be "the axis of evil"

 

 

[facthunter]

d10, dont' some of the faired nosewheels act as ruddesr?. I have heard that some pilots use them as such, for added directional control.. Nev

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

d10, dont' some of the faired nosewheels act as ruddesr?. I have heard that some pilots use them as such, for added directional control.. Nev

I haven't heard that they are used for added directional control. The result is a slight yaw, which I expect varies between different profiles.

It is possible to "steer" with the nose wheel on an Airborne tourer trike in the absence of gusts or turbulence, as these provide greater input. It is only very minor input and cannot return the trike to level flight from a bank, but can keep you straight in very calm conditions. I haven't tried this with an SST wing, but the SST on a Tundra base is more likely to yaw in normal flying that the tourer, in my experience.

 

A tip given by the CFI after a formation training session, a couple of days ago, was to keep the nose wheel centered to avoid the slight yaw it creates, but as you would undoubtedly know, in close formation the pilot needs to make a lot of very small input corrections, so the slight yaw becomes a factor in making the task harder.

 

 

[Guernsey]

Yes, but one in which the controls are all reversed. Guernsey has expressed it well, but implies that Trikes have rudder pedals, which is an interesting analogy because you do have pedals for ground steering, which are opposite sense to 3-axis, but for flying, you use the control bar and push left to bank right and right to bank left, so also reversed.

Sorry about that guys I didn't explain myself properly, I mean't the pedals for ground steering which has caught out many a pilot. My Son owns a trike and also flies the Morgan Sierra.

 

Regarding the nose wheel fairing providing some steering or yaw, is this only yawing the body of the trike and not the wing so would not affect steering unless you were able to hold the bar very rigid. Just a thought as I don't personally fly trikes (too cold up there).

 

Alan.

[Guest davidh10]

Sorry about that guys I didn't explain myself properly, I mean't the pedals for ground steering which has caught out many a pilot. My Son owns a trike and also flies the Morgan Sierra.Regarding the nose wheel fairing providing some steering or yaw, is this only yawing the body of the trike and not the wing so would not affect steering unless you were able to hold the bar very rigid. Just a thought as I don't personally fly trikes (too cold up there).

Alan.

While the pod will yaw a little with respect to the wing, it is only the tolerance of the hang bolt contained by the pivot hole through the top of the mast (and any torsional flex in the mast) that allows this to occur, so a yaw of the pod transfers to the wing (unlike pitch or roll).

When I was testing out this method of steering, I was not touching the control bar at all. I was in stable straight and level flight, sitting with my arms crossed. It was an interesting experiment, but not practically useful.

 

 

[Guernsey]

Thanks for that David I have now learned something new today which will help to offset the ten or so things I forget each day...or was it eight things....no that was yesterday .......I think

 

Alan.

 

PS When you fold your arms in a Trike is it left over right as in three axis, or is that also reversed.

 

 

 

[skeptic36]

I think the wing in this video is a bit special and not commercially available.

 

From 1:38 through to about 2:00 the pilot is steering with the nose wheel

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Thanks for posting, Skeptic36. An interesting video.

 

Obviously the Revo is much more sensitive to yaw / roll coupling. Notice that the quick rolls induce a significant yaw too.