Consideration of a Taurus Motor glider.

[Barry Hendy]

Would you consider the electric variant of the Taurus, Barry?(it looks interesting and impressive)

I thought not .... If you just want a single quick launch it looks OK, but I want some travel distance - to get out from under controlled airspace (e.g. from Lilydale down to Gippsland or up to Benalla) before soaring - then getting home at the end of the day. The Taurus is not a touring aircraft, but the fuel version (with the extra tank) gives some good flexibility while the electric version gives you a climb to a few thousand feet - but that is about all off one charge.

 

I don't imagine much engine-on time so in the scheme of things the cost of fuel and maintenance is low compared to the benefits. Sorry but the 'feel good' factor of a free launch is outweighed by the cost/life of Li batteries and the limitations (to me ....) of electric (I should add I am also jaded as I worked 4 years in the solar game ... but that is another story.)

 

Having said that - the simplicity, silence and innovation is very impressive by the look of it.

 

 

[Exadios]

I agree with Kaz above that regardless I should do some refresher training in gliders, but RAA cannot spin, but could a GFA instructor take me in a (my) RAA reg aircraft (glider) and do spin training - or do I have to hop into a GFA aircraft?

I agree with Kaz as well.

 

My guess is that you could get a GFA instructor to train you in your RAA reg glider, but see comment about Form 2 below.

 

Can anyone clarify the issues associated with high-altitude wave flying? It is certainly above the limits of RAA ops, but GFA are allowed up there are they? Under what conditions? and once again - is GFA both GFA certified pilot AND GFA registered aircraft? But the 8000ft RAA height limit will be frustrating.

My understanding is that the altitude limitation comes from the pilot's license, not the aircrafts license. So, if you had a suitably endorsed GFA license and you were flying your RAA registered glider then you would be flying under GFA altitude restrictions.

 

There are no altitude restrictions for a GFA pilot but airspace rules do apply. For most of Australian airspace this means that the pilot must get a clearance before going above FL200 (20000 feet). I think that in the near future this clearance is going to require ADS-B Mode S.

 

But back to the core question of which category to operate under and the limits of each: I am even more confused now. Both GFA - independent operator and RAA licensed seem a viable option - each with some limits. Which is the best way to base myself?

I will speak to my friend who has the Sinus. As I have said my understanding is that he has registered it with the RAA but uses a GFA pilot license with Power and Independant Operator endorements. I will post here what I learn from him. It may take a few months though because he and three others are flying their motor gliders from here (WA) to Bourke Town, QLD for some Morning Glory fun. I may not see him before he leaves in September so it may take a few months.

 

I think that the only practical difference between registering a Taurus with a VH registration and a RAA registration is that with the former there is a requirement to do a Form 2 on the aircraft every year. This is a good thing! All the motor gliders, other than the one Sinus, have VH registration.

 

I think that in your position I would take the following path:

 

1. Join a gliding club and get to the "Silver C" stage.
    
    
   
2. Buy the Taurus.
    
    
   
3. From the same gliding club get your Power and Independent Operator endorsements, and Form 2 ticket.
    
    
   
4. Go flying in wave.
    
    
   

 

 

Good luck.

 

 

[Barry Hendy]

Thanks Exadios. I did get my silver C about 30 years ago! Do they tarnish? No doubt I do need significant refreshing though. I am underway with my RAA license (cannot hurt!) but it does sound like operating under a GFA independent operator status is worth while.

 

Go flying in wave ... yes: That is definitely on my objectives list!

 

 

[Admin]

I have been hearing some great things about Gary Morgans Motor Glider and in fact I have my own eye on it...could very well end up being the site mascot

 

 

[Guernsey]

I have been hearing some great things about Gary Morgans Motor Glider and in fact I have my own eye on it...could very well end up being the site mascot

Fantastic news....not only will we have a Mascot but we shall also have 'An eye in the sky'.

 

 

[kaz3g]

Most of the gliders that I have seen were in enormous hangars eg the old Sportavia one: 100m x 50 m.

There are some big ones at Corowa, too. I parked the Auster there one night rather than leave it out.

 

It was originally a case of using facilities left after the war and then people found it much less onerous to have their aircraft hangared fully rigged rather than putting them into their trailers. You can actually stack them pretty tight, too as the high wing of one glider is parked over the canopy of the glider beside it.

 

kaz

 

 

[tcsmith]

When you arrive at a new field - don't you requie a designated CFI to be 'in charge' of ops? And aren't the motor gliders at your field under the CFI. I thought this structure did not support an 'independent' motor glider operator under GFA rules as an effective one-man-show. (this is not based on any intimate knowledge of the GFA regs I must admit!)

Hi Barry,

As a member of GCV and GFA, I have an Independent operators rating. This does not absolve me from having to have 2 separate DI's if I rerig the aircraft in event of an outlanding. Cheers T.

 

 

[Guest rocketdriver]

I agree with Kaz above that regardless I should do some refresher training in gliders, but RAA cannot spin, but could a GFA instructor take me in a (my) RAA reg aircraft (glider) and do spin training - or do I have to hop into a GFA aircraft?

Not sure if anyone else has answered this, but, no matter who is flying the a/c, if it is registered RAA, aerobatic flight is prohibited.

Aerobatic flight is currently defined in CAR 1988 as:

 

CAAP 155-1(0) - Aerobatics

 

January 2007

 

“… manoeuvres intentionally performed by an aircraft involving

 

an abrupt change in its attitude, an abnormal attitude, or an

 

abnormal variation in speed.”

 

This is what CASA is planning (does?) define as aerobatic .... a bit of a change to the old wording and not sure if it has been adopted yet ...

 

2.1.2 A more detailed definition based in the United States Federal

 

Aviation Regulations (US FAR) Part 91 is:

 

"Aerobatic flight means manoeuvres intentionally performed by

 

the pilot that involve:

 

(a) bank angles in excess of 60

 

o

 

; or

 

(b) pitch angles in excess of 30

 

o

 

, or otherwise abnormal to the

 

aircraft type; or

 

© abnormal accelerations involving abrupt changes of

 

direction, angles of bank, angles of pitch, or speed."

 

Does a spin exceed these parameters? ..... If so ..... No Go.

 

 

[eightyknots]

Not sure if anyone else has answered this, but, no matter who is flying the a/c, if it is registered RAA, aerobatic flight is prohibited.Aerobatic flight is currently defined in CAR 1988 as:

 

CAAP 155-1(0) - Aerobatics

 

January 2007

 

“… manoeuvres intentionally performed by an aircraft involving

 

an abrupt change in its attitude, an abnormal attitude, or an

 

abnormal variation in speed.”

 

This is what CASA is planning (does?) define as aerobatic .... a bit of a change to the old wording and not sure if it has been adopted yet ...

 

2.1.2 A more detailed definition based in the United States Federal

 

Aviation Regulations (US FAR) Part 91 is:

 

"Aerobatic flight means manoeuvres intentionally performed by

 

the pilot that involve:

 

(a) bank angles in excess of 60

 

o

 

; or

 

(b) pitch angles in excess of 30

 

o

 

, or otherwise abnormal to the

 

aircraft type; or

 

© abnormal accelerations involving abrupt changes of

 

direction, angles of bank, angles of pitch, or speed."

 

Does a spin exceed these parameters? ..... If so ..... No Go.

In my opinion, the wording "or otherwise abnormal to the aircraft type" seems to allow a lot of lattitude in interpretation.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I recall that the question of who can fly PIC in an RAA registered aircraft was asked sometime ago on this site and the definitive answer was that only a RAA certificated pilot can fly an RAA registered aircraft. The example used was one where say a J230 was RAA registered and a GA Pilot who had a VH registered J230 was unable to fly the RAA registered one until he had an RAA certificate. As such the oft asked question of entry into controlled airspace of an RAA registered aircraft is that it can only be done by an RAA Pilot who also has a GA PPL with appropriate endorsments for the airspace he wants to operate in (and also that the Aircraft has to have appropriate engines and radios etc).

 

I think I recall that the issue was arould public liability insurance, which goes with the Aircraft, but the policy requires an RAA certificate holder to be PIC.....

 

I would have thought that operating an aircraft with multiple governing bodies arguing for ownership of different phases of the flight would be a horses a$$. If the sinus is RAA registered then push comes to shove I'll bet that RAA rules governs the whole flight. The bit about no stalls, is "Intentional stalls" related. Is stalling on purpose something glider folk do regularly? I guess it might be if you are flying close to the stall on a regular basis, but then Im clueless about whether thats something you do or not. Infact after initially writing this post I was thinking about deployment of spoilers (air brakes) which as I understand destroy lift potential of the wing. When they are out, is the wing technically stalled? and how does that affect anything? probably doesnt as I recall spoilers are inboard so only the inboard sections are stalled with most handling characteristics intact I thought.

 

Motor off operation isnt something only gliders do, we practise engine failures regularly, so I cant see that being an RAA impediment...

 

Andy

 

 

[Ardydublu]

Barry,

 

There is a Taurus operated by a private syndicate at Stonefield in SA. It is a group of German enthusiasts who keep the aircraft in Australia and use it while here for regular flying holiday expiditions. I believe the Taurus can only be registered under GFA as experimental and therefore cannot be used for general Glider training, but can however be used for endorsement/conversion training. This goes back to its original European certification. As other folk have already advised, under GFA regulations you would need to be affiliated with a Gliding Club and have an independent operator endorsement and operate within GFA limitations. The Taurus can alternately be registered under RAAus, but RAAus charter does not cover gliding and several issues arise there in regard to training, conversion/endorsement and engine off (gliding) operations and limitations. Neither system is perfect and both present some problems. Go figure - life's a bitch. If you are serious about buying a Taurus, you would be wise to make yourself fully informed of the consequences of registration/operational facts from both organisations directly and not rely on heresay and casual commentary from forums like this. The Taurus pricing is available at the dealers website, you simply open the excel spreadsheet available and place a cross (x) against the options you desire and the price column updates automatically.

 

Yes it is a very nice recreational self launching glider.

 

Hope this is helpful.

 

 

[Barry Hendy]

Thanks for the guidance Ardydublu.

 

I have been investigating deeply the options and it is indeed a complex labyrinth of both technical and regulatory issues.

 

While the Taurus is very attractive - I have concluded it does not suit my objectives mainly because of the engine configuration. The combination of 2-stroke, pop-up and the placement means the operation of it is very constrained. It really needs to thought of as a "self launching glider", i.e. the motor is not worth much more to you than a tug plane is at your airfield. It is great for a launch - but is an 'all or nothing' motor system. i.e. Full power or closed. It cannot be used for joining the circuit with other power planes for example. You cannot cruise or idle with it.

 

Also, the pop-up configuration introduces a lot of drag, so with it up you start coming down fast. Combine this with the reputation of 2 strokes as not being that reliable, and your ops need to consider going for an engine start with around 3,000 ft to go, allowing for a failed start procedure and still having enough height for a safe glider outlanding. None of this meets my needs. If I lived on a farm in central NSW it would be great - but not for operating out of a local RAA/GA airfield like Lilydale.

 

I then turned my attention to the Sinus - the same wings as the Taurus on a conventional fuselage with a 4-stroke Rotax out front. Not as attractive, and not as good gliding performance, but a pretty capable glider and all the operational flexibility of the Rotax.

 

As I tried to sort all the mixed messages about soaring and the regulations, I went to the source and asked the RAA on their position on engine off operations of an RAA aircraft - and the answer was pretty definitive; you are not allowed to turn the motor off in an RAA registered/operated aircraft (The only exception is an instructor demonstrating specific emergency procedures.)

 

So if I want to go soaring in a Sinus (or any other LSA style aircraft) I must register it with GFA and operate fully under their procedures.

 

So that is my next step; what exactly does it take to get GFA endorsed in a motor glider and get independent ops status? I am heading down that path now .....

 

 

[Tex]

I think you can also VH register the Sinus... if you wanted to that is...

 

 

[Rob Milliken]

Hi Barry,

 

How did you go with your enquiries - are you looking at the GFA route?

 

Rob

 

 

[Barry Hendy]

Hi Rob.

 

By my reading - it appears RAA operations are not allowed to turn the engine off and soar - officially - so that really puts a damper on the idea. I believe there is some more investigation into this still going on though.

 

I am currently flying under GFA operations progressing with a Motorglider endorsement and I hope independent ops. This seems like the only legal way to soar, and is not proving as challenging as some had predicted. (procedures wise anyway - getting the big, heavy, long-winged Dimona down is another matter!)

 

Barry.