kgwilson Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Sounds odd to me too. Best Glide ratio is L/D or lift over drag which can be represented by Vh/Vv where Vh is horizontal velocity and Vv is vertical velocity. It can't be minimum sink either as that will be a lower speed than best glide as it is the speed at which Vv is the least and may be not much above stall so your Vh will be reduced. Close to stall the aircraft will usually buffet and begins to parachute and then the sink rate increases. Minimum sink can be found easily by watching your VSI (variometer in Glider speak) as you slow the A/C & best glide with a good GPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazda Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Regulators in general want to protect fare paying passengers and people on the ground. Niether of these were injured in the ditching. As far as members of the public are concerned, Victor 1 is pretty safe. As a pilot, the choice is up to you. Keep in mind the importance of addressing risk. V1 has been in place for over 20 years and due to the stunning scenery and ease of transit for aircraft travelling north/south, it is busy airspace. Thousands of V1 flights occur every year. An accident involving sport aviation and no members of the public is unlikely to stop it, unless pilots want it closed, and why would we, when we have the choice? No one forces you to fly that route. By the way, V1 for 20 odd years has been south of the harbour only, at 500'. I note that the CTAF has now extended north, but there is no 500' requirement of course. And it has always been the case that you should wear (not just carry, but wear) life jackets on V1. On ditching, I can't believe the number of people who don't get taught ditching during forced landing training. Whether you land into wind or along the swell depends on the size of the swell. (Make sure someone shows you how to judge which way the waves are going, and the wind.) If you have time, try to land near land or a boat. Always unlatch the door/canopy, and some advocate putting something in there (a shoe etc) to stop it from closing/jamming. Keep your thumb on the same side as your fingers and don't hang on, if you break your fingers and thumbs you might not be able to get out. Remember the best glide speed is for distance, not for low rate of descent, if you want to minimise that you need to be slower than best glide. Land slow, tail down, be prepared for more than one impact, and it may flip over so be prepared to work out how to get out inverted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Good stuff maz, although the jab flight manual says NOT to unlatch the doors as they form part of the structure and the integrity of the fuse relys on them being in place. cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Good stuff maz, although the jab flight manual says NOT to unlatch the doors as they form part of the structure and the integrity of the fuse relys on them being in place.cheers Fibreglass reacts quite differently to aluminium which can bend and stay bent, jamming the doors. Fibreglass flexes and either snaps, or returns to it's original position, so nothing wrong with Jab's advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Ditching is best done at the lowest speed attainable, dropping the tail (first contact) in first, which hopefully will slow you down further before the rest hits. If you really want to know how to ditch a C182 call Lee Ungerman, he ditched one off Hamilton Is once early in his career. One trick with the Cessna doors that many are not aware of,. is you can unlatch the door, push it open and then return the latch to the closed position. The door latch arm is then out stopping the door from fully closing again for a quick exit once in the water. Also eliminates the door jamming. This was pointed out to me by a Cessna demo pilot in California years ago.................................................. Maj........................................................................................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 I know of a couple of C182 jumpships that were ditched off Hamo'. Was Lee one of those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Yes possibly VH-CNG.......................it later hit a powerline near laguna keys and killed the jump-operater owner as he was doing a low buzz job. I'd imagine Lee would be contactable at the Brisbane CASA office..................................Maj... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guernsey Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Good stuff maz, although the jab flight manual says NOT to unlatch the doors as they form part of the structure and the integrity of the fuse relys on them being in place.cheers I don't have access to a Jab flight manual but are they refering to Ditching in water or land emergency landings. I can understand the reasons for keeping the door latched in the latter case but a water landing is different. I was taught to always unlatch the door on high wing aircraft because the aircraft will quickly sink up to the wings so unless you have the doors or windows open it is impossible to push the doors against the pressure of the water. You need to fill the cabin with water as quickly as possible. Some high wing aircraft will float for a short time if the wing fuel tanks are almost empty, if not the weight of the engine will drag the aircraft down vertically. when living on the island of Guernsey most of our flying including training was done over the sea so we had to know the various techniques depending on the aircraft. I have seen the results of successful ditching and fatal ditchings on both high and low wing aircraft. The low wing ones were usually more successful. Alan Marriette. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motzartmerv Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Hey Allan, I've just looked it up, and now I'm confused. The flight manual says to leave doors closed in a ditching, but the qrh ( quick reference handbook) says to have them open. Hmmmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Gordon Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 You need to fill the cabin with water as quickly as possible. Some high wing aircraft will float for a short time if the wing fuel tanks are almost empty, if not the weight of the engine will drag the aircraft down vertically. when living on the island of Guernsey most of our flying including training was done over the sea so we had to know the various techniques depending on the aircraft. I have seen the results of successful ditching and fatal ditchings on both high and low wing aircraft. The low wing ones were usually more successful. Thanks Guernsey, with my high wing Maule I had not thought of the quick sinking effect, just dealing with the shock of landing etc. would be enough. It would be far better to have a well-rehearsed Emergency Operating Procedure in place with a checklist. I hope to be flying back and forward from Vic to Tasmania from time to time and certainly need to understand the principles of ditching in all weather conditions. I am also concerned that the ELT should be turned on as part of the EOP and taken with you, assuming that you float free...and not allowed to go down with the plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Donald Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 You said if you wish to transit these areas do it in a GA aircraft...what exactly makes a GA aircraft safer in these lanes? (at least when talking 4 strokes)I agree it highlights a problem... the problem lies with Airservices and is not GA/RA... Both vh reg and raa REG most of the TYPES NOW BEING FLOWN CAN HAVE EITHER REG, so it comes down to experience and qualification and approved equipment for the flight concerned, as for procedures for forced landings and slide rule boys, it comes down to knowing your aircraft practice and a shitload of luck, until you are confronted with it don't pick holes in others actions or decisions hindsight is not an option and a passenger adds to the stress especially kids when on board, GA OR RAA no argument exist, as to transit these areas, we do our best as any pilot does. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Yes possibly VH-CNG.......................it later hit a powerline near laguna keys and killed the jump-operater owner as he was doing a low buzz job. I'd imagine Lee would be contactable at the Brisbane CASA office..................................Maj... I think his name was Richard. this was a horrble accident that could have taken more lives if he stuck to his original plan and called in to Shute to pick up some jumpers. instead he went to his property just north of laguna to pick up his daughter. As he buzzed the hanger he hit a power line and the aircraft was cut in two and crashed in flames in a dam. There were two people in a boat fishhing for Crays and they had to leap for their lives. Sad accident that should never had happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turboplanner Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Like the guy with the Auster at Nelson who had an enjoyable lunch with friends, then just had to fly between the two hangars to show how sharp he was. Would have pulled it off too, if the power line connecting the two sheds hadn't been there. Left a ghastly sight for the dinner guests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Gordon Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Ouch, they are two salutary tales. Memo to oneself, never buzz the hanger, or anywhere for that matter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maj Millard Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 VH-CNG (Cessna 182) was possibly the aircraft Lee was flying when he had to ditch off of Hammo. The aircraft was in the drink at least overnight. The engine was then sent away to a reputable, (sic ?) engine shop for rebuild, and we refitted it to the aircraft in Ingham. It was then being used in Ayr as a jump-plane. It had an annoying miss at full throttle, and in a short time was returned to us to find the fault. We changed everything, carb, mags, leads, spark plugs, but nothing worked. Finally there was nothing to do but start removing valve-covers. On removing the first one I swear salt water came out !..........the reputable engine shop had not even removed the valve covers after it spent a night in the ocean !.. A valve spring was broken, and they all had started to rust !......the engine ran fine after we refitted all new valve springs. I believe this was the same engine in the aircraft when it crashed during the buzz job north of Laguna killing the owner/operator..I believe it was Lees' first commercial GA pilot job when he had to ditch at Hammo, he then came back to Ace base at Woodstock, then operated by the late Bill Starke who was a relative of Lees. Lee then started flying ULs and got his instructors' license. The rest is history. The Thruster T500 that Lee used originally is still in use at what is now Starke Field.............................................................Maj.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coxy Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 The Lightwing Speed 2000 is one of the easiest planes to get out of with its gull wing doors. You could even unlatch them just before touching down in the water if you thought that was going to be smart. Also, being a low wing adds to your chances of getting out if you can ditch at an angle much better than 45 degrees at stall speed.I did V1 with a very experienced instructor a few weeks back and there is no way, when you are restricted to exactly 500', that you can glide to shore all along V1 South. On V1 North at 1,000' you should be able to make it to the beach with a 10:1 glide path (or better). V1 is 500ft in both directions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spin Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 V1 North refers to the northern part of the route, not the direction of travel. South Head being the dividing line between the two sectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pookemon Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Yep Geoff, but I think the 'gear up' is a real problem for most of us.David Just roll inverted. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Interesting. Similar discussion on the aerobatic club email list on the same subject and the last post was exactly that. Ditch inverted and you'll be flipped right side up. The other option is to use your parachute but that solutions has issues with going into the water as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 DJP, I'd go with option 2 there. I've jumped into open ocean intentionally, even equipped for it you are amped up survival mode wise but I'd rather risk jumping if the situation allowed, rather than try and pull off a 'perfect ditching'. Then you still have to float around for ages till you get picked up. Good chance you may be bleeding from the ditching too. Another thing to consider when ditching at a reasonable speed is the effects of hydraulics on the human body. ozzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Andys@coffs Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Ozzie we all know you and parachuting...doesnt take much to get you to want to set up under a canopy... Mind you at 500ft is that an option for a personal chute? especially as the determination "I have to jump" wouldnt be made at 500ft but something quite a bit lower......I understand that the original point was (I think) BRS related Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Gordon Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I would try to stall my Maule (27knots) just above the water tail in first. still be a hell of a shock and maybe it would still flip, but seatbelts and the engine upfront should take some of the load. Another good reason to own a STOL plane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ozzie Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Ozzie we all know you and parachuting...doesnt take much to get you to want to set up under a canopy...Mind you at 500ft is that an option for a personal chute? especially as the determination "I have to jump" wouldnt be made at 500ft but something quite a bit lower......I understand that the original point was (I think) BRS related Andy A lot of conversation on just how low can you go, over the years. All depends on the situation, the equipment and just how much the subject wishes to survive. One conclusion that all come to is that if you will die if you stay with the aircraft then you would have to at least give it a go. ozzie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpacro Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Agreed, ozzie, it provides another option. I was reliably informed that if you can get outside the aeroplane (if flying level) at 500 ft then it will work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SAJabiruflyer Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 ACA is meant to have an interview with the survivor tmw night (Friday). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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