Training for flights over water, but close to the coast

[old man emu]

Without wanting to impinge on the investigation of the recent fatality at Curl Curl NSW, I wonder how many pilots are briefed on ditching before undertaking flights over water along the coast?

 

I believe that the airplane involved in the Curl Curl fatality was based at Wedderburn and was originally heading south just off the coast. If that is correct, one might suggest that the flight was along the popular Victor 1 route.

 

The incident shows that pilots undertaking any flight where there is water between their flight path and a safe landfall need to know how to put their aircraft down into water. This incident shows that a couple of hundred yards off the coast can be very dangerous.

 

Old Man Emu

 

 

[Spin]

I'd put it under the heading of something that a prudent pilot would investigate himself, before flying somewhere like Victor 1. I've read a few articles and the odd chapter in training books, not much more you can do I would think, after all it isn't that common an occurrence. I do wonder though how many aircraft obey the edict in ERSA; "all occupants of single engine aircraft must wear approved life jackets for the duration of the over water portions of this route"

 

 

[Wayne T Mathews]

Without wanting to impinge on the investigation of the recent fatality at Curl Curl NSW, I wonder how many pilots are briefed on ditching before undertaking flights over water along the coast?I believe that the airplane involved in the Curl Curl fatality was based at Wedderburn and was originally heading south just off the coast. If that is correct, one might suggest that the flight was along the popular Victor 1 route.

 

The incident shows that pilots undertaking any flight where there is water between their flight path and a safe landfall need to know how to put their aircraft down into water. This incident shows that a couple of hundred yards off the coast can be very dangerous.

 

Old Man Emu

With all due respect, and without wanting to impinge on the investigation, I doubt very much that a briefing about ditching would have any relevance in a scenario where an aircraft impacts in a reported 45 degrees nose down attitude.

 

 

[sfGnome]

Ok, moving away from that specific incident, what is the best method for ditching (other than "don't"!). Apart from reading that it'll be ugly and you're almost certain to flip when the wheels dig in, I've never read any specific advice. Is it just a case of slow as possible and hope for the best, or is there something a little more scientific?

 

 

[rgmwa]

Ok, moving away from that specific incident, what is the best method for ditching (other than "don't"!). Apart from reading that it'll be ugly and you're almost certain to flip when the wheels dig in, I've never read any specific advice. Is it just a case of slow as possible and hope for the best, or is there something a little more scientific?

Here's some good information on ditching.

 

http://www.pilotfriend.com/safe/safety/ditching.htm

 

rgmwa

 

 

[motzartmerv]

We use the victor 1 regularly during training, as its one of our advanced navs. Before descending at jibbon point or long reef we have a procedural brief in the event of a ditching. This involves an assessment of wind, along with swell conditions, sydney radar tuned on stby freq, a clear and definite handover drill and a pax brief on the use of the lifejacket and doors.

 

Should an engine failure occur during the 500 ft section time is obviously very limited, and turning is to be avoided, If a turn is nessacary it should be done at a max of 20 deg angle of bank and initiated quickly with a max turn of 90 deg's . Once the turn is complete stick with the new heading and NEVER attempt a turn at low level.

 

(the above is extracts from the brieinf WE use. Consult your instructor on what best for you in YOUR aircraft)

 

cheers

 

 

[Mazda]

Ditching can be incorporated in the general forced landing briefing. One thing a ferry pilot told me was to make sure you keep your thumbs alongside your fingers, not around the yoke/stick, and fly carefully with those fingers, because if you break your thumbs/fingers you might not be able to get out.

 

 

[Tomo]

Low wings are much more user friendly for ditching than high wing aircraft I would imagine.

 

 

 

[jerrajerra]

Re above video material, I did a HUET just to fly as pax at night on board a chopper to a vessel at the anchorage. The trainining was invaluable...the experience was terrible. I hated being submerged in water like that!

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Low wings are much more user friendly for ditching than high wing aircraft I would imagine.

In a high wing the fuselage makes a hull for landing, especially in a retract. Then once ditched, you have somewhere to wait to be rescued.

Surprisingly the odds are very good in favour of surviving a controlled ditching.

 

Of the 179 ditchings we reviewed, only 22, or 12 percent, resulted in fatalities. Although survival rates vary by time of year and water-body type, the overall general aviation ditching survival rate is 88 percent. Yet, even that record is somewhat misleading; the potential ditching survival rate is actually a bit better.Source:equipped.com

[Neil_S]

Hi Tomo,

 

"Low wings are much more user friendly for ditching than high wing aircraft I would imagine."

 

Hmmmm - I am not sure I would agree.

 

I am assuming that in an RA plane with fixed undercarriage there is a big likelihood it will flip on touching the water. In the Gazelle I would have opened the door(s) just before touching, and if it did flip then I would like to think the air in the wings would provide some buoyancy and allow the upturned fuselage to remain at least partially above water. But even if it didn't it should still be reasonably easy to get out of the open door under water and find the surface.

 

Also in a forced landing on land I would also get the doors open just before touchdown, and if the plane flipped it would be much easier to get out with the fuselage upmost and wings on the ground than if the same happened in a low-wing plane. Some low wing planes have a canopy that opens by moving it upwards - if the plane is inverted and resting on the canopy I imagine it may be very difficult to open the canopy, as you would effectively have to push the whole weight of the plane upwards - something that may be impossible if you are injured in any way.

 

I hope I never have to find out if the above is true, but from an academic viewpoint sitting in front of my PC it makes some sense.

 

Corrections & discussion welcome!!

 

Neil

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Hi Neil,

 

Have a read of the link I posted above (Myth number 5), not saying it is 100% correct, but raises some good points.

 

Cheers,

 

HH.

 

 

[Litespeed]

Learning to swim is always a good start.

 

No matter what- Fly the aircraft all the way in and make sure belts are tight. Stalling in water can be just a deadly as land- keep flying the aircraft all the way to the water.

 

If possible open the doors/canopy.

 

Practice getting your belt off and out of the aircraft- practice saves precious seconds. Practice getting the belt off the pilot/pax- when your sinking and injured this can save lives. This practice will kick in when needed and overcome panic and most injury. Literally can be the difference between life and death. Some belt designs are much easier to operate than others.

 

Carry a Sat beacon and activate it before you hit the water- ideally as soon as you realise a water landing is on. Your now been tracked by sat and someone knows your exact position and is already activating SAR- time can be critical. If your beacon is damaged when landing/crashing, it has still sent your position, which is recorded.

 

Naturally do normal distress calls on radio, stay calm and give position and problem. Repeat till sure your understood if possible. Stay Calm.

 

Remember to breathe.

 

A inflatable vest is cheap life insurance just inflate when you get out not before.

 

Ideally carry a personal EPIRB attached to each person- also includes a strobe light.

 

A personal water dye is very helpful for SAR- carry one.

 

Make all your decisions early, waiting means that beach maybe unreachable. If you can make the beach but its crowded, go the tidal zone- at least help will be close and less likely to drown. If its rocks- and they look very rough- keep away to the sea- you could survive the crash only to be smashed on the rocks with the waves.

 

Oh and cross your toes.

 

 

[nong]

We use the victor 1 regularly during training, as its one of our advanced navs. Before descending at jibbon point or long reef we have a procedural brief in the event of a ditching. This involves an assessment of wind, along with swell conditions, sydney radar tuned on stby freq, a clear and definite handover drill and a pax brief on the use of the lifejacket and doors.Should an engine failure occur during the 500 ft section time is obviously very limited, and turning is to be avoided, If a turn is nessacary it should be done at a max of 20 deg angle of bank and initiated quickly with a max turn of 90 deg's . Once the turn is complete stick with the new heading and NEVER attempt a turn at low level.

(the above is extracts from the brieinf WE use. Consult your instructor on what best for you in YOUR aircraft)

 

cheers

Gee Merv, that sure is an interesting training brief. Personally, I would never advise a student to limit bank angle, and I often find they need to be encouraged to aggressively and confidently use whatever bank is appropriate. I can just imagine some poor sod religiously holding only twenty degrees of bank, as instructed, whilst holding full rudder in a vain attempt to make the bloody thing turn. Just a touch of overpitch will result in a spin toward the already lowered wing and the machine (at low level) will have rolled and pitched sufficiently as to guarantee uncontrolled inpact within less than a second.

I see no reason for arbitrary bank angle limits in light aircraft ops and absolutely no reason why an aircraft can't be flown aggressively in the glide, if required, to achieve a desired outcome.

 

If you need to turn at low level....do it. I say.... do what you have to do, confidently.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

There is a very good reason why we teach to limit bank angles at low level. Several recent FATAL accidents could well be testiment to this.

 

If you read my post again you will see this briefing is specific to the victor1. Theres nothing to be gained by turning steeply, a gentle turn into wind (or to parallel the swells)initiated quickly will reduce the descent rate. When your talking about seconds in the air to prepare for the ditching and get a call out, why on earth would you throw the thing around, loose more height than you need to, and potentially end up in a stall spin situation??.. What would be gained by this sort maneuver?

 

To the students out there, DON'T turn steeply at low level.

 

 

[Tomo]

I see no reason for arbitrary bank angle limits in light aircraft ops and absolutely no reason why an aircraft can't be flown aggressively in the glide, if required, to achieve a desired outcome.If you need to turn at low level....do it. I say.... do what you have to do, confidently.

I'm no instructor...

 

But

 

A steep turn with no power, under 500'... bit like doing 200kph on the back wheel down the highway on a bike, can be done, but.....

 

 

[jerrajerra]

Thanx for your input Nong. There is a very good reason why we teach to limit bank angles at low level. Several recent FATAL accidents could well be testiment to this.If you read my post again you will see this briefing is specific to the victor1. Theres nothing to be gained by turning steeply, a gentle turn into wind (or to parallel the swells)initiated quickly will reduce the descent rate. When your talking about seconds in the air to prepare for the ditching and get a call out, why on earth would you throw the thing around, loose more height than you need to, and potentially end up in a stall spin situation??.. What would be gained by this sort maneuver?

To the students out there, DON'T turn steeply at low level.

I wouldn't turn steeply at low level either. I've been taught to limit your bank angles to no more than 30 degrees left/right arc, place the aircraft into wind direction if able and try to maintian 80kts. I know other guys are taught to limit the air speed to 60 Kts so not sure why the difference.

 

 

[Deskpilot]

When I did Shark Patrols along Adelaide's Foreshore in a Cessna 172, the practice was:

 

Rear seat observer/pax opens and locks the doors so that wind pressure held them in the almost closed position, he/she then removed their headsets and tossed them behind the seat so that they wouldn't get tangled in the leads. On hitting the water, he/she was first one out, allowing the pilot/co-pilot to push seats back and then vacate. Pilots made sure their headsets were off and thrown forward onto the dash prior to splash down. You have more on your mind at the time than to worry about getting tangled up or snagged on radio leads.

 

Being at only 500ft and 500ft from the shore, a ditching would be over very quickly. A beach landing was possible in some places but even Adelaide's coastline has cliffs.

 

https://picasaweb.google.com/112139417225183937781/BeachPatrol

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...Carry a Sat beacon and activate it before you hit the water- ideally as soon as you realise a water landing is on. Your now been tracked by sat and someone knows your exact position and is already activating SAR- time can be critical. If your beacon is damaged when landing/crashing, it has still sent your position, which is recorded....

It might bear some explanation, but read your Beacon manual... Most don't send a signal instantly to avoid inadvertent SAR registrations. It may be 30 seconds after activation before it actually sends a SAR signal. Further the GPS (assuming it is one with one) has just been powered on in an unfamiliar (to it) location. A GPS can easily take a minute to boot up and establish a location. With mine the test procedure will disclose how long the GPS takes, but remember that the time it takes is dependent on how many satelites it can see and signal strength.

It can be hours to narrow the location of a beacon without a GPS, and even then to a significant search area. Read the info on the AMSA web site.

 

Just don't think it all happens instantly.

 

 

[turboplanner]

To put it simply: Different aircraft have different speeds for best glide.

OR, each aircraft has it's own glide speeds which you should know before being endorsed and which should be the first action when the engine stops.

If I'm mixing aircraft I usually stick a little note somewhere so their's no brain fade issue.

 

 

[Tomo]

I wouldn't turn steeply at low level either. I've been taught to limit your bank angles to no more than 30 degrees left/right arc, place the aircraft into wind direction if able and try to maintian 80kts. I know other guys are taught to limit the air speed to 60 Kts so not sure why the difference.

That's interesting, I assume this is in the 172?

 

This is from my C172 POH

 

 

To put it simply: Different aircraft have different speeds for best glide.

I believe he's talking about the same type aircraft, though I could be wrong.

 

 

[Mazda]

"Best" glide depends what you want though. The normally quoted "best" glide is for distance, not for min descent rate. If distance is not an issue and you want minimum descent, a slower speed than best glide will provide this.

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

Mazda,

 

What about the increased drag?

 

 

[Spin]

"Best" glide depends what you want though. The normally quoted "best" glide is for distance, not for min descent rate. If distance is not an issue and you want minimum descent, a slower speed than best glide will provide this.

I can see that there are situations where you may want to minimise the decent rate, but certainly for the last 100' feet or so I'd want a bit of speed in hand to manage the flare - it was quite noticeable when I landed deadstick that the lack of residual thrust robbed the elevator of some effectiveness and the aircraft sat down a bit sooner than I would otherwise have expected.

 

 

[Gnarly Gnu]

Hmm... I was taught an emergency procedure for certain EFTO situations which involves an immediate very steep turn (60+ degrees) with no power. You must keep the nose right down of course to avoid a stall but it works superbly well, a gentle turn always looses a lot of height - although obviously the latter is always preferable where a steep turn is not required of course. The shot is to practise at altitude and record the height lost with a steep 90 or 180 degree power-off nose down turn.