Cessna 170... Oh what fun!

[djpacro]

...... wheelers, but some aircraft prefer it over the three point from what I understand.

fairly right, in my opinion.

 

I seem to recall DJP saying he prefers 3-pointers in the Decathlon, too...

Decathlon has a fairly bouncy landing gear and many students have trouble learning one new way of landing an aeroplane let alone two.If a student is going to be flying the Decathlon for a while I get them to do some consolidation solo with three-pointers and do wheelers with them down the track. In a Decathlon you can handle all the conditions that you want with a three-pointer. Demonstrated xwind velocity is 17 kts.

If a student is going on to other types then I teach three-pointers and wheelers.

 

10 knots is more than the demonstrated max for the Auster!...

10 kts of xwind is ideal for a Pitts as it gives just enough drift to be able to see some of the runway.

[facthunter]

The C-180 has a similar U/C to the Citabria/ Decathlon and I always find the Cessna more daunting if I haven't flown it for a while. .

 

I was discussing the three-point thing at an SAAA thing yesterday.

 

When I first learned to fly, the aircraft were nearly all tailwheel. We were taught that the three pointer was the normal thing and I did hardly any other method, to such an extent that when I was asked to do one on my CPL (commercial) flight test, and I had to really think about how I was going to do it, ( and look as though I was good at it). That seems strange today. We did operate from a very short strip. ( District Park Newcastle).

 

I strongly recommend that you practice both and be aware when to use one technique in preference to the other.

 

It's easy to do "wheelers" all the time and get lazy, but in fact the three pointer is easier, ( in good conditions) NOT for all types either. ie Thruster.

 

When things are gusty, and turbulent generally the wheeler is the better choice, and for low wing loading very small planes the only wise course. ( You shouldn't be flying them in such conditions at all, really). Nev

 

 

[ossie]

I am endorsed on cessna taildraggers but have never flown one.

how does that work ??

 

 

[David Isaac]

I generally 3 point the Auster, especially if I am landing on a narrow airstrip or somewhere with a rough surface because I can touch down some 5 knots slower (stall it on rather than fly it on). Many TW drivers would perhaps agree with me that the Auster is more difficult to wheel nicely because they bounce so damned easily, too. Cessnas are generally regarded as easier to wheel and a little harder to 3 point, I think.

Hi Kaz, I definitely agree that the Auster is easier to 3 point and you just have to be patient and hold off, don't let the mains beat you to it and end up ricocheting off the ground again. The Auster is still flying at 24 knots ... amazing. The bungee U/C makes for an exciting time in the Auster doing wheelers.

 

The C-180 has a similar U/C to the Citabria/ Decathlon and I always find the Cessna more daunting if I haven't flown it for a while. .

I agree Nev and that undercarriage can have substantial rebound. Another problem is the varying geometry of this type of U/C with the camber constantly altering as the load changes which can have an effect on keeping directional control of the aircraft. Personally I find the Cessna 180/185 easier to 3 point but it is quite difficult to make a 3 pointer look nice, of course unless you are current in them. I was always taught 3 pointers first and then a variation was wheeler landings. Wheelers can present significant challenges, from planting the U/C on too hard and having a prop strike, to over braking and tipping over to a prop strike or even an invert and the age old problem of lowering the tail too quickly at flying speed and you are off again. Generally 3 pointers are safer because once landed, the aircraft is stalled and is not going to lift off again.I recall the C180 in good stiff crosswinds, coming in crabbed and then converting to wing low and landing on one main wheel and the tail wheel with the hold off resulting in a very ungainly looking landing where the aircraft wallows onto the runway and virtually rolls to an immediate stop. Ungainly yes, but safe. The 3 pointer is a safer landing in my view because you are approaching at the minimum speed configuration, the wing is stalled at touch down and you will require much less runway than in the wheeler configuration. But you better be ready to be assertive on the rudder.

 

There is nothing quite like taking off in a good crosswind at full noise full aileron into wind and up on one wheel.

 

Once you fly these tail wheel types you have to be very careful that you don't catch tail wheel disease.

 

 

[kaz3g]

.........10 kts of xwind is ideal for a Pitts as it gives just enough drift to be able to see some of the runway.

If I have enough drift angle on in the Auster to see the runway, I PANIC!

 

Got an email from SK tonight saying she swapped tall stories with Lionel at Binis telling him about her Auster exploits on the weekend.

 

kaz

 

 

[shags_j]

I would love to learn TW. Anyone know any good schools around brisbane that I can learn from?

 

 

[David Isaac]

Boonah, just a nice short drive away.

 

 

[dazza 38]

Boonah, just a nice short drive away.

There is nil stock of T/W aircraft to train/hire at Boonah.Paul took his Savage Cub to Victoria last xmas and Greg Neale sold his Drifter when he retired from Flying training.

 

 

[David Isaac]

That is disappointing Dazz, did you finish your endo in the Cub?

 

It is getting difficult to find TW aircraft these days ... great pity, they are much more fun to fly.

 

 

[Guernsey]

Agreed.

 

Alan.

 

 

[Guest nunans]

I would love to learn TW. Anyone know any good schools around brisbane that I can learn from?

If you live near the brisbane airport then it's only a few hours to Aldinga SA.

For me it's a three hour drive to sydney then two hours on a plane, but last time i drove the 16hrs each way for 8hrs of lessons when i got there.

 

Well worth the trip for me, they are fantastic and i'm heading back in a few weeks

 

 

[Tomo]

Shags next time I'm over that way in a Tail Drager I'll try and remember to give you a'hoy to come for a quick run - though I'm not an instructor, so it'll only be in a passenger role!

 

 

[shags_j]

Awesome, thanks Tomo!

 

 

[shags_j]

Well I have applied for ATC so might be spending the next year in Melbourne. I'm sure there's a place down there I could learn...

 

 

[dazza 38]

That is disappointing Dazz, did you finish your endo in the Cub?It is getting difficult to find TW aircraft these days ... great pity, they are much more fun to fly.

Yes

 

 

[dazza 38]

That is disappointing Dazz, did you finish your endo in the Cub?It is getting difficult to find TW aircraft these days ... great pity, they are much more fun to fly.

Yes mate, It took me 3.44 hours until I went solo in the Savage cub (1 hour was general handling and 2.44 CCTS).I then did a couple of hours solo until we got a good X wind at Boonah a few weeks later.I went up with Pete Stanton again so he could put me through the ringer with x wind circuits. Did about 1.5 of x wind circuits, then i was signed off on the savage Cub.I prevously had about 20 hours in drifters and 2 hours in a Javelin.Last time I flew a TW , before flying the cub was May 91. I didnt get the TW or LP converted on my certificate, when all these Endorsments got created. It didnt worry me as I wasnt current in TW anyway.My previous experience helped alot when I re- converted to TW. It all came back to me, i still remembered the how to do it, just had to get my feet working again. That took a little while, I was/am getting lazy flying a Nose wheel.

Edit - added content

 

 

[David Isaac]

Good on you. I'm glad you finished it, I remember how much you enjoyed the experience.

 

 

[dazza 38]

It is a shame that there are less and less TW aircraft for hire or training. I guess it comes down to a Business decision . A nose wheel aircraft, will attract a larger pool of people, who want to train/hire than a Tail Wheel aircraft. ALot of people would love to learn to fly a TW aircraft, but they never get around too it. Or they start a coversion, then find out that they have to work alot harder during Take off and Landing phases, than they do in a Nose wheel.Then they give it away.Also currency is always a issue with TW. Im not current ATM because I dont have access to a TW aircraft to hire.

 

 

[facthunter]

Even if you are not current you will never forget totally what you have learnt. Over the years, I have had large breaks from flying tailwheel aircraft. When I get back in them I may not be pretty for a while, but I reckon I am always safe because I know when to give it away and go around and have another go at it.. Does one ever forget how to ride a bicycle? Nev

 

 

[David Isaac]

Even if you are not current you will never forget totally what you have learnt. Over the years, I have had large breaks from flying tailwheel aircraft. When I get back in them I may not be pretty for a while, but I reckon I am always safe because I know when to give it away and go around and have another go at it.. Does one ever forget how to ride a bicycle? Nev

Damn good point Nev, today I had my first fly of Piper Cub J3. What a delightful little vintage aircraft to fly, I had a ball. I haven't flown a TW aircraft for well over a year now, and it just came back to me. I do have to admit the Piper appears docile compared to the Citabria. Being TW type endorsed and flown TW aircraft over time teaches you a different respect for these types and in the back of your mind you know they will bite unless you stay alert and 'on top' of them.

 

 

[Guernsey]

Agree entirely, when I bought my first Supa Pup Mk 2 I hadn't flown a TW aircraft (Austers) for 17 years, had no trouble whatsoever.

 

Alan.

 

 

[Yenn]

When I got my C182 endorsement, it also included the C180. It may have been a slip of the typewriter. I have never flown a C180 and have flown but not landed a C185.

 

I have over 200 hours on Thrusters and in that time I did 1 wheeler, just to satisfy all those who told me I should do them all the time. The fact that I only did 1 tells you which I prefer. When I took the thruster for a test flight before buying it, the owner nearly had kittens sitting beside me. He confesed afterwards that he had never done a 3 pointer. Too many people listened for too long to the self confessed Thruster expert, who has sadly passed away.

 

 

[naremman]

Had the good fortune of doing an AFR with Poteroo in his magnificient C170A just before he and the aircraft parted company.

 

Poteroo is out of the "wheeler" camp, wheras I was out of the "3 pointer" camp, which in essence meant that neither of us was wrong, but the "creative confict" was robust!!

 

I quite happily align myself in Facthunters camp and favour 3 pointers.

 

My first tailwheel experience was in a Chippie, and by pure ass nailed a presentable wheeler at my first attempt at landing. Given the challenge from the back seat to "do it again", I in complete ignorance repeated it. The explosion from the back seat was memorable, and has not been forgotten, even 35 years hence. I took me another 2 hours banging and nearly crashing the poor old Chippie til I had some tenuous hold of the concept of a "3 pointer".

 

Progressing to the Tiger Moth and C170/180 were made easier in my opinion by having a sound "3 pointer" technique.

 

There will never be a good outcome to the respective merits of both persuasions. At the risk of invoking Facthunters wrath: There are are only two types of taildragger pilot; those who have, and those who are about too!! I, somewhat luckily, remain in the camp where the backend has yet to pass the front. just!!

 

 

[dunlopdangler]

I realise that this topic is a little stale, but looking at the photo of the C170 of Al's, it has the rego of the taildragger that I got my TW endo in, only when I did mine it was in a GA registered Skyfox VH-APK. Its stable mate VH-APN was the first JAR-VLA certified. I remember doing a lovely ground loop in one of them once at redcliffe with a chorus of radio chatter wanting to see me do it again..

 

 

[Jimbo59]

Well done Tomo.

 

You reminded me of my tailwheel endorsement in a Decathlon many years ago under the watchful eye of Bob Tait. After the tail came up I was sure the prop was going to carve a chunk out of the runaway so I pulled back a bit and of course gyroscopic precession comes into play so I correct for that and put the nose back down a bit and so it went on for what seemed like an eternity with Bob sitting behind me not saying a word. Finally stagger into the air and all stabilizes on climb and all I get from Bob was "you won't do it like that again will you" ..... and he was right... I never did. I'm sure that the guys in the tower at Archerfield had a good laugh about it for some time!

 

Always remember that you haven't stopped flying a taildragger until the engine is shut down.

 

Cheers

 

Jim