dutchroll Posted October 8, 2011 Posted October 8, 2011 Here are a handful of the articles from various American liberal media outlets calling for / implying the need of a ban on airshows or 'more regulations' (code for the same). I love it how a journalist can "call for something" as if their opinion somehow means anything more than the next persons.Toronto Star Sacramento Bee Huffington Post The Ledger New York Times Yahoo Having a journalistic opinion and calling for this, that & the other is not the sole domain of liberal media. You've never seen Fox News? You don't have to agree with them. And if other people do agree with them, well we just have to take a look at ourselves and ask whether it's an education problem, or whether we might actually need to change something. I really enjoy airshows, but sensible regulation is required and they have to be safe for the general public. You go around pranging planes into crowds or taking out surrounding houses too often and you won't be enjoying airshows for much longer. What happened is an understandable and natural reaction. Let's just hope things stay on the rails for the next few airshows. 3
Gnarly Gnu Posted October 9, 2011 Posted October 9, 2011 No I don't watch 'Fox news' as I don't have a TV for a start, I read those articles online. As there already are many regulations of course I'm interested what new regulation do you believe would have prevented this crash, or at least saved all those lives Dutchroll?
dutchroll Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 No I don't watch 'Fox news' as I don't have a TV for a start, I read those articles online.As there already are many regulations of course I'm interested what new regulation do you believe would have prevented this crash, or at least saved all those lives Dutchroll? The answer is I don't know the answer. Part of the reason I don't know whether further regulation, or a change to the current regulations, is needed is because the investigation is not yet complete. All I'm saying is that it's an understandable public (and media) reaction. If a plane crashes into a crowd, be prepared for people to call for more regulation. There is no need to be surprised or annoyed by it. And it's not just a trait of alleged "liberal" (as you say) media. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. We pilots tend to believe we're entitled to opinions more than many other people do! As I said, we either need to educate people on why (and if) no more regulation is required, or we need to take a look at ourselves and ask whether there is something we could be doing better to prevent this from happening. I'm reserving my judgement until the investigation is completed. Then I might have something more to say about that side of it.
turboplanner Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 Don't worry dutchroll, what you said is pretty much where it's going. You only have to look at the massive car redesign, and fence upgrades they had to do for the Indy 500. It's just as popular as ever, and people are going home to their families.
djpacro Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 From an email I received recently: Our new crew member, Matt Jackson, is not only a race pilot, aircraft business owner and aircraft owner (he also takes care of Tom Cruises P-51) but he is also the VP of the Unlimited Racing Class and head of the Safety Committee. We had a long talk about the Reno crash on the way to Mojave today. Matt believes the cause of the crash was due to The Galloping Ghost having a CG too close to the aft limit which resulted in pitch instability. There are instructions on the P-51 regarding no combat missions with the aft fuel tank full resulting in an aft CG problem. Instructions specify to empty the aft fuel tank first in flight. During qualifying Matt watched Galloping Ghost from inside the cockpit of Furias and could not believe how much trouble Leeward was having in keeping the Ghost in a stable pattern around the course. Since Leeward lives in Florida and the Galloping Ghost was modified for racing in Calif., when Leeward picked up the Ghost for the Reno races at the last minute, a complete flight test program had not been done based on available information.There is a video of the entire last lap of the Ghost before the crash which Matt showed me. As Leeward was coming around pylon #8 at about 480 mph after passing Rare Bear, he hit turbulence which pitched his left wing down, Leeward corrected with hard right rudder and aileron. Just as the aircraft was straightening out, he hit a second mountain of turbulence which caused the tail to 'dig in' resulting in a 10+ G climb rendering Leeward unconscious instantly and resulted in the tail wheel falling out. (Broken tail wheel support structure was found on the course). As the Ghost shot upward the LH aileron trim tab broke loose. This can be heard on the tape, so the trim tab did not cause the accident. Since the Ghost was racing at 480 mph with full right rudder and the stick full right, this is where everything stayed when Leeward blacked out. Cockpit camera film that was salvaged from the wreck shows Leeward slumped over to the right in the cockpit. As a result, the Ghost climbed up and to the right, rolled over on her back and then headed for the box seats. Most in the box seats never saw it coming because it came in from behind them. Matt has had long conversations with the NTSB who call the accident a 'fluke'. They are not going to recommend canceling future races. He has also talked to the insurance companies covering the races for Reno and they also say they are not going to cancel their coverage of future races. Now we wait for the FAA to make a decision. Ironically, Matt had bought box seats tickets for his good friends who stayed with him for a few days before the races. They were the husband and wife who were killed. I'm currently in the USA, talking to some aerobatic guys about the FAA about airshow rules and the limits they place on pointing towards the crowd during an aerobatic display.
djpacro Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 DJ (one of the guys I was talking to last weekend) just replied to the previous email: A friend forwarded this to me a few days ago, and I have to take exception to several points.This is the first I've heard of an aileron trim tab breaking loose, but as we all know there is very clear photographic and video evidence of an elevator trim tab letting go. Only God and possibly the NTSB know if this caused the accident or was a secondary effect. There's no way that GG maintained full right rudder and full right aileron until impact. First of all, P-51s have a rudder anti-servo tab which increases the control force as deflection increases. And of course all controls become stiffer as speed increases. So I don't see how an unconscious or disabled pilot (as Leeward surely was) could have maintained pressure on the controls. Second, full rudder would have snap-rolled the aircraft straight into the ground. Finally, as I saw with my own eyes, there was little if any rudder input as GG soared over the crowd -- just a relatively gentle roll. As for the assertion that "most in the box seats never saw it coming"... Well I only wish that were true. Everybody around me in the stands saw GG in trouble and stood up to watch. On the other hand it all happened so fast there wasn't much time to be scared.
facthunter Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 That makes more sense. Until the investigation is completed most of this is speculation, some quite informed and some not so. I think a racer should be designed purpose-built from the ground up. Those aircraft are way beyond their design envelope and the engines are developing a lot more power and without contra rotating props become unmanageable. It is a skill test , and strength test for the pilot's, but the public are at risk too. I'm not a bleeding heart and Mustangs look nice, but we don't see modified Offenhausers running around Indy today. Nev
fly_tornado Posted October 10, 2011 Posted October 10, 2011 From my perspective it did seem like JL was working the controls, after GG pulled up it did look like JL did a 90 degree snap roll. Although It could have just been the perspective I had.
turboplanner Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 I saw that post a few days ago F_T, and there's a bit of a fine line argument developing, but if you accept the g force of the pull up, it's a bit academic because of the massive forces involved.
fly_tornado Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 Yes for sure, I accept that my interpretation of what I saw is fairly inaccurate. Every time, I look at the footage or photos of the crash I can feel the hair on my neck and arms stand up and I feel a bit sick :/
fly_tornado Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 you can read about Galloping Ghosts pre race condition http://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201105#pg36
turboplanner Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 Yes for sure, I accept that my interpretation of what I saw is fairly inaccurate. Every time, I look at the footage or photos of the crash I can feel the hair on my neck and arms stand up and I feel a bit sick :/ Surprisingly recall gets better after a few months when you are watching kinetic energy being unleashed. I've suddenly realised what I was actually seeing months later, or picked it up after seeing a new video. On a personal note, if the reaction doesn't go soon I'd recommend a session with a psychologist. They have a way of deconstructing an event, then putting it back together again so you don't get that recurring feeling. A lot of cops do it for the same reasons, so don't feel reluctant, it's not you, it's the event.
Guest davidh10 Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 you can read about Galloping Ghosts pre race conditionhttp://www.sportaviationonline.org/sportaviation/201105#pg36 Unfortunately they use one of those stupid pseudo magazine formats that requires you to magnify it and then navigate up and down the columns to read it. They need to discover how people use the Internet. Any magazine that adopts this format loses me as a reader (and lots of others).
fly_tornado Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 up the top right, click on 1 page and use the zoom buttons in the centre to go to page width.
Guest davidh10 Posted October 11, 2011 Posted October 11, 2011 up the top right, click on 1 page and use the zoom buttons in the centre to go to page width. Year. Thanks, but still too small unless I make browser full-screen, which I never do (I'm always doing more than one thing at a time with multiple windows open). If full-screen, then I have to scroll down and up and down to read the columns.. If enough people refuse to use it, they will fix it. An industry journal I used to subscribe to went that way over a year ago... lost so many subscribers they reverted.
turboplanner Posted October 13, 2011 Posted October 13, 2011 I saw that post a few days ago F_T, and there's a bit of a fine line argument developing, but if you accept the g force of the pull up, it's a bit academic because of the massive forces involved. Telemetry on the aircraft indicated 11 g in the pull up indicating the aircraft couldn't have been under control. A very disturbing aspect is the post by Chimbu Chuckles on PPRuNe, relating to what appears now to have been a hoax explanation of the crash. Very distressing
fly_tornado Posted October 14, 2011 Posted October 14, 2011 Had a look @ that thread, don't those guys in PPrune go on and on.
turboplanner Posted October 14, 2011 Posted October 14, 2011 You just read past the obvious garbage and egoposts. There are some 10,000 hours plus guys there who can really get to the bottom of things and provide some good learning experience.
eightyknots Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 I rather not read a lot of speculation. wise thinking F-T; better to wait till the proper Enquiry has completed its findings.
Guest Maj Millard Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 That's all well and good, but will we ever see the report ??.......................................Maj...
eightyknots Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 That's all well and good, but will we ever see the report ??.......................................Maj... I heard on the radio that an "interim" report was to be produced before the end of the year. I am not sure where this will be published (or 'promulgated' )
Guest davidh10 Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 If it on the US NTSB database, you can query it here when it becomes available.
Guest Maj Millard Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 Sorry, posted my reply #124 on the wrong thread, thought it was the Taree one.
turboplanner Posted October 18, 2011 Posted October 18, 2011 Sorry, posted my reply #124 on the wrong thread, thought it was the Taree one. ATSB is, unusually, on that case so you will see a report on that one
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