Old Bar Ferris Wheel Incident

[Guest cficare]

correct! and the Board are our connection to the overall governing body....CASA...who has been bolstering its raa ranks lately...

 

 

[winsor68]

My guess for what comes next? GA's new RPL Instructor rating which apparently is useless because it can't be used in a non AOC school is just a start...

 

 

[Guest cficare]

there is a lot of hiddeous stuff proposed.....some dont even need an aoc!!

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

quote: It is certified, it is 24 Registered, and it is used for ab-initio training ... Is that not of concern to you as a L2?

 

I don't recall reading in the report that that particular aircraft was used in training. I am trying to stay within the facts stated in the report. However, if it is used as a trainer it just makes those obvious and potentially dangerous defects, more of a problem to me.

 

Like I said, I can't recall ever seeing tyraps used to clamp fuel lines, and would certainly have a problem with it as an L2 if I did, on any aircraft. On the contrary you often see fuel line simply pushed on the the brass barb, which in some situations is acceptable. However on a pressurised fuel line after a fuel boost pump, it is generally required to use some type of suitable clamp. Two tywraps is not acceptable, or a common accepted method.....................................................................Maj...

 

 

[Guest cficare]

i'd go with that thought scotty....provided the thread was reopened in its entirety.

 

 

[David Isaac]

There is no doubt in my mind that the new RA Aus Board are working hard at the very issues that this unfortunate accident has exposed. There will be consequences as a result of this accident that are not necessarily directly related to the physical causes of the accident.

 

The Board will do their job, we are all collectively RA Aus and we all collectively enjoy the benefits off the achievements of hard working Boards and individuals and we all collectively suffer the consequences of unfortunate events. We all collectively need to maintain high standards ... this is aviation, not go cart racing.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Reputation is a very fragile thing, and this incident is a classic example. I have never heard RA pilots described as tools before, The President and board members will now need to work fast to prevent a degeneration of our image.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

It's interesting timing that we have had this board shake-up at this time. They will be at the coal-face straight off the back, so we can only hope they will tackle the job with style...I have faith in Steve Runciman as pres, and all the other new board members also, at least we'll get a straight answer with no secrets or hidden agenda...................................Maj...

 

 

[fly_tornado]

let us not let this denigrate into an RAA he said she said thread.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

MM, correct on all counts except I don't agree it was a 'soft' impact . Stopped suddenly and unexpectadily at around 65 kts by a steel cage wouldn't be too soft would it ?.

 

The RAA regs state that all training and/or hire aircraft be maintained only by a suitably qualified Level 2 maintainer.

 

Don't know who signed out this particular aircraft on it's last service, but there are several items that wouldn't get past me as a level 2 on any aircraft.

 

I maitain a couple of trainers and although they should be, no aircraft is completely perfect. Occasionally it's a tough decision between grounding the aircraft, or keeping it going to support the only active instructor in the area, those who are eager to learn to fly, and the growth of the sport in general.

 

That said, there is no reason to jepodize the safety of all concerned by allowing an unsafe fuel system , or any other critical flight safety system for that matter....The last thing a first time solo pilot needs is a serious in-flight emergency to deal with !.............................................................Maj...

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

This incident sure has stirred up lots of soul-searching! I can't find it, but somewhere miles back in this discussion it was said that an automotive fuel filter is not kosha in an aircraft. Can someone comment on this idea; what is wrong with using a car-type fuel filter?

 

Lyle

 

 

[fly_tornado]

aren't the paper elements are the problem? water dissolving them

 

 

[facthunter]

The wheel absorbs energy as

 

It distorted /deformed, structuraly(temporarily and permanently.)

 

It actually moved the trailer it is built on.

 

Its average density is low.

 

This allowed the plane to slow up from a groundspeed of around 40 knots to zero in a few feet. This could be contrasted with hitting a shipping container or thick tree or the ground where it would stop in a matter of inches.

 

Regarding the use of auto fuel filters. I'm sure some of them at least would be up to the task. They have to cope with ethanol in that case. There are bogus aviation parts out there too. Nev

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

yeh relatively soft I meant, as opposed to ploughing into planet earth, I reckon the ferris wheel would have absorbed a fair amount of inertia :)And I too would be keen to know why no auto filters (even the glass ones), is it an avgas thing?

I thought that for the reason of not using auto type filters would be obvious. Plastic ones melt in fire/heat and just add to a problem and the glass types can break in an accident. Same with rubber hoses and those white ti wraps are not uv stabilized . They will fail with age . If i were looking at auto type filter i would use the types that are for high pressure fuel injected engines that are made from metal and require flared metal piping. Correct style bulkhead fitting to run through the firewall be smart too. ( are they all like this?) If you are going to run electrical wiring along side fuel lines i would think common sense would have it running through some form of insulated hose to protect it from chafing or shorting out against the piping.

 

Like they say you get what you pay for. Never been a big fan of gusseted riveted construction in this form for a long life airframe. Been down that path. Using a suitable adhesive to bond the tube and plate would go a long way to stopping the rivets from fatiguing out. and increase airframe life.

 

Ozzie

 

 

[cherk]

aren't the paper elements are the problem? water dissolving them

my understanding is the paper type element absorbs the water and restricts fuel flow......BTWDIK

 

 

[facthunter]

Ozzie I mean the steel bodied ones. Not the ones you fit to lawnmowers that you can see through, Filter paper has Plastic? impregnated in it to stop it from falling to pieces when water goes through it. A fine filter can block if you get a mix of "dead" fuel, so perhaps for a carburettor engine you don't need a superfine filter , but you may get sediment in the bowl over a period of time. so drain or remove the bowl regularly. Nev

 

 

[Guernsey]

Hi guys our Morgan Sierra is a Certified 24 aircraft which has also been temporarily grounded subject to an inspection ( next week sometime ) and then the appropriate paper work completed. When that has been completed and the final report from the ATSB is in, then and only then will we chip in our two bobs worth based on the FACTS.

 

Alan.

 

 

[Old Koreelah]

Thanks for the replies re automotive fuel filters. The advantage of my little plastic filter? I can easily see if it contains any sediment or rusty water and fit a new one it. It replaced a breakable glass sight bowl which dripped petrol on my leg; there was no means of turning off the fuel. I use rubber fuel lines rather than metal ones, which I feel would be more prone to rupture from vibration or crash damage. They are heat-shielded in the engine room. Open to suggestions re some better system.

 

Lyle

 

 

[Guernsey]

I used exactly the same system in my Supa Pup for the same reasons with the exception of the fuel filter.

 

Alan.

 

 

[pudestcon]

It's off topic, but what's wrong with using zip ties on fuel lines?

 

Now no judgements here please - just asking the question.

 

Pud

 

 

[turboplanner]

It's off topic, but what's wrong with using zip ties on fuel lines?Now no judgements here please - just asking the question.

 

Pud

Things like deterioration and not being able to get a tight enough grip.

 

I also threw them away on the race car when I'd tightened them a couple of times. It's amazing how, no matter how well you match the pipe and tube, a little weep always seems to start after a bit of vibration.

 

Iggy made a good point, stainless steel clamps are dirt cheap compared with fixing a leaking pipe out in the country.

 

 

[av8vfr]

It's off topic, but what's wrong with using zip ties on fuel lines?

As TP and Ig said...Also, fuel attacks the plastic tie and they fail. Then you have two potential problems. A possible fuel leak / fuel line seperation and the broken cable tie that could jam moving parts like throttles etc...

 

 

[dazza 38]

Things like deterioration and not being able to get a tight enough grip.I also threw them away on the race car when I'd tightened them a couple of times. It's amazing how, no matter how well you match the pipe and tube, a little weep always seems to start after a bit of vibration.

 

Iggy made a good point, stainless steel clamps are dirt cheap compared with fixing a leaking pipe out in the country.

I agree with the guys, I was a Aircraft technician.Which realy means a mechanic.We where not engineers we signed our life away by signing our name IAW maintnance manuals.Having said that in 13 years working on aircraft (we are not stupid we get to know what is correct and what is not) .I have never seen zip ties used in that way.This may be moderated.If so that is OK.Im trying to get across is that there are certain trade practises this is not one of them.Im worried ATM.I have on more than one occasion made aircraft U/S as a level one.On the flight line. Im no expert.But I have had training.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

As Dazza says, it's important to maintain levels of maintenance standards in aircraft. These standards, many developed decades ago, were developed because of failures, and as a result of accidents and deaths.

 

To ignore these hard won standards is to re-invent the wheel..............there is no reason to do it the hard way all over again, we've already learnt the lessons, and lost the good people in the process !...Aircraft fuel systems cannot be allowed to fail, they must be of the highest standard.

 

One accident up here in the North a few years back highlighted the danger. The owner of Zenith 601 had been suffering engine problems. Thinking it was fuel-supply related, he fitted a second fuel-pump on his in-cabin main fuel-line, in series. What he had done was double the fuel pressure in all his down-stream fuel-lines. One separated

 

during a cross-country fligh causing an instant fuel feed fire in the cabin. The intensity of the fire was demonstrated by the completly charred instrument panel. the pilot made it to the ground but died a lonely and no doubt very painfull death from his burns.

 

It is the lack of respect for standards that is bothering a lot of people in this instance !, myself included, and it is no doubt what stood out like dogxxxxs to the ATSB guys. It is simply because the manufacturer has ignored, or been ignorant of basic aircraft manufacturing standards, as used by most other manufacturers in this country, and others.

 

I really like the Seirra range of aircraft, and I have been an avid supporter of the design from day one, as you may know from this forum. I still believe the design has a great future, and I hope it can work through it's current problems. You must maintain high standards in aircraft manufacture or repair, to keep the aircraft we fly as safe as possible..............................................................................Maj...

 

 

[Powerin]

the manufacturer has ignored, or been ignorant of basic aircraft manufacturing standards

That's what I find most troubling, whichever one it is.

 

It's off topic, but what's wrong with using zip ties on fuel lines?

Pud, I have found (from experience on many farm machines) zip ties have a limited lifetime before they become brittle and fragile...especially the white ones. Black ones are a bit better.

I've also found that chafing is a big issue on farm machinery and it's surprising how often a steel fuel/oil/hydraulic line, held tightly in place by a metal clamp, will wear through at the clamp given 10 years or so. Same for any plastic coated wires, cables etc etc.

 

The point is, like a lot of farm stuff, aircraft are generally also a long lived machine, subject to all the same sort of things like vibration, dust, moisture and extremes of hot and cold. If the manufacturing standards as alleged by the ATSB in this case are true, what sort of condition are those zip ties going to be in in 10 years time? What is a plastic (or even metal) brake line, or a rubber trim bungee going to look like after 10 years of vibration and movement rubbing against metal?