Old Bar Ferris Wheel Incident

[Virago]

Since we are discussing cable ties (zip ties) I would like to put in my ten cents worth. There are plastic cable ties and plastic cable ties. Not all are good quality. Some are total rubbish (the ones you buy from B*nnings and J*ycar for example). Now I am not advocating using cable ties on fuel systems, but where these are used, only use the nylon ties with the metal locking tab. As has been stated earlier, the black ones seem to be more UV tolerant. As a retired radio LAME, I wouldn't mind a dollar for every cable tie I've used over 42 years in the industry (For many of those years, cable ties didn't exist!) Also, if using ties around metal tubing, wrap a turn or two of plastic insulation tape around the tube first because ties will cut into or abraid metal pipe ... even steel. John.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

I'm also not totally against Cable ties, where quality ones are used you can get them to a known constricting force by using calibrated guns, like the panduit cable tie gun. It allows you to tighten the clamp to a known and repeatableforce and then cuts the spare tie past the lock. As I recall in the RAAF you couldnt use one without the other.

 

Im not advocating use of these anywhere, but just saying they are not completely evil. Given the time consuming effort of lacing a loom behind a panel (assuming modern trained techs even learn that anymore) or using cable ties, I'd probably use the later knowing that the likelihood of wanting to rework the panel at some time in the future was high.....

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...The point is, like a lot of farm stuff, aircraft are generally also a long lived machine, subject to all the same sort of things like vibration, dust, moisture and extremes of hot and cold. If the manufacturing standards as alleged by the ATSB in this case are true, what sort of condition are those zip ties going to be in in 10 years time? What is a plastic (or even metal) brake line, or a rubber trim bungee going to look like after 10 years of vibration and movement rubbing against metal?

You can't take anything in isolation. As Andy@coffs said, zip-ties "... are not completely evil", but you have to look at the application for which they are used. As a substitute for a stainless hose clamp, they are not appropriate, but for keeping cable looms neat and preventing them from wandering around, they are fine, used correctly.

 

Rubber hoses need to conform to the specification of the manufacturer, for the application and will have an inspection / replacement regime. For instance, on my aircraft, all rubber hoses are to be inspected as part of the routine maintenance and in any case, replaced after five (5) years.

 

Bungee cord has its applications too, but will also need to be regularly inspected, tested and replaced.

 

 

[farri]

I`ve used the clear plastic disposable filters for many years and hours of flying time, both with the Rotax 582 and currently the Rotax 503....I`ve never had a problem with them and I will continue to use them, but I wouldn`t use cable ties on fuel lines.

 

If I was to use cable ties, on fluel lines, I would use two and the second one would be placed against the first, with the zip directly opposite, so as to maximize sealing.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Powerin]

You can't take anything in isolation. As Andy@coffs said, zip-ties "... are not completely evil", but you have to look at the application for which they are used. As a substitute for a stainless hose clamp, they are not appropriate, but for keeping cable looms neat and preventing them from wandering around, they are fine, used correctly..

Yep...I think cable ties are one of mankinds greatest inventions and have used them as a temporary clamp exactly in the manner pictured...but only on a stationary motor which stays firmly on the ground

 

 

[pudestcon]

Yep...I think cable ties are one of mankinds greatest inventions and have used them as a temporary clamp exactly in the manner pictured...but only on a stationary motor which stays firmly on the ground

There are absolutely dozens of cable ties on a thruster aircraft, not, I hasten to add, on the fuel lines though. When I first was introduced to the Thruster it was a little disconcerting seeing all the cable ties holding the skins in position. However, on inspection of various Thrusters over a number of years, and looking at countless photos it is plain to see the cable tie is an acceptable method of restraining or tensioning certain components. I don't have a problem in using cable ties, but not on fuel lines.

 

Pud

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

We in this modern advanced age have incorporated so much plastic into our everyday lives. I have no immediate plans to replace my nice Tridon Stainless fuel-lines clamps, for plastic tyraps any time soon. i also agree they are one of mans best inventions and I've got them all over my engine also, but not on fuel lines !....

 

If i can't afford the clamps I probabily won't be able to afford the fuel to run the plane anyway !...............Maj...

 

 

[pudestcon]

nice Tridon Stainless fuel-lines clamps

Hmmm, must google that to see what they look like Maj.

 

Pud

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Just your regular screw clamps available from most hose places Pud. I like stainless as they don't rust like the steel ones..............................................Maj...

 

 

[pudestcon]

Just your regular screw clamps available from most hose places Pud. I like stainless as they don't rust like the steel ones..............................................Maj...

Yep, just googled it and that is what I have used on my Thruster. Interesting to see Tridon also supply cable ties:wink:

Edit: Sometimes hard to get the small clamps for quarter inch fuel line.

 

Pud

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Hey I see Tridon make tyraps also...black and white !!.........who hah!!!..........................................Maj...

 

 

[turboplanner]

There are absolutely dozens of cable ties on a thruster aircraft, not, I hasten to add, on the fuel lines though. When I first was introduced to the Thruster it was a little disconcerting seeing all the cable ties holding the skins in position. However, on inspection of various Thrusters over a number of years, and looking at countless photos it is plain to see the cable tie is an acceptable method of restraining or tensioning certain components. I don't have a problem in using cable ties, but not on fuel lines.Pud

you'll be doing a lot of monitoring and testing then, otherwise when one lets go it will be followed shortly by a 'brrrrrrrrrrrrrppppppppppppppp" and you'll be waving your arms to stay up.

 

There is a big difference in quality and I think someone mentioned nylon as the best, so No 1 before looking at any structural application you need to find the best material and check the life cycle out in the open under UV rays.

 

No 2 is to measure the tension which will be applied.

 

We've already discussed pipe clamping which is above the capacity of plastic teeth.

 

So the tension required has to be measured, then matched to the size zip tie/teeth, and that needs to be done mathematically.

 

Then you need a safety margin so if the tension required is 2 kg then the tie capacity needs to be much greater, say 5 kg.

 

Then if it's being used to stretch fabric there will be a peak load when the wind hits it so there's a multiple factor there.

 

Tie strength can be multiplied by a number of ties in the same way as rivet strength.

 

Even after that I'd still be nervous because you need to know the deterioration rate.

 

 

[terryc]

Yep, just googled it and that is what I have used on my Thruster. Interesting to see Tridon also supply cable ties:wink:Edit: Sometimes hard to get the small clamps for quarter inch fuel line.

Pud

Hi Pud, When my thruster came from the factory it had every connection on the fuel lines held with cable ties. When I repaired it after the owners crash I replaced them all. I must say that after ten years they were still in perfect condition.

 

 

[Guest davehw]

For anyone interested in the NTSB preliminary report regarding this incident, look at: www.atsb.gov.au/media/3525311/ao2011126_prelim.pdf

 

 

[turboplanner]

What do you think of it as a Sierra flyer?

 

 

[Guest davehw]

What do you think of it as a Sierra flyer?

What is it ? If you mean the incident, it speaks for itself with details revealed.

 

 

[Guernsey]

I think what Turbo is asking is....as a Sierra flyer yourself, what do you think of the use of cable ties in your Sierra.

 

Alan.

 

 

[winsor68]

I think what Turbo is asking is....as a Sierra flyer yourself, what do you think of the use of cable ties in your Sierra. Alan.

I wasn't game to ask if anyone with access to a Factory Sierra could check it out and report back....?

 

 

[Powerin]

I actually think the cable ties are a minor thing, but put together with the other issues, they seem to indicate a certain standard of manufacture.

 

 

[Guest davehw]

I actually think the cable ties are a minor thing, but put together with the other issues, they seem to indicate a certain standard of manufacture.

[dazza 38]

Nobody has mentioned Adel clamps yet so I will.Zip ties are good for bundling wires together to make a loom, just dont secure to a fuel line:no no no: .Adel Clamps are used to secure the loom, or pipes or what ever to the a/c structure. None of this has a bearing on the accident though.

 

 

[Guest davehw]

I completely agree with your view, of a certain standard of manufacture in question Powerin.

 

Unfortunately our friends at Taree have now given 'Australian Factory Built' a bad name, with what has been revealed by the ATSB investigation.

 

The aircraft is basically a good design, but true aviation industry methods and standards are falling short.

 

Who runs a nylon brake-line through sheet metal without cut protection, such as a grommet, and surely one would re-manafacture a control column with a single pivot hole, instead of drilling multiple holes. etc. etc.

 

This is all I have to say on the matter, and am rather shocked by report photos.

 

all the best.

 

 

[Guest cficare]

suspect Morgan are in damage control mode at present...................

 

 

[XAIRVTW]

Just read the report I think the Authoritys will have a field day with this one, especially with question marks around the registration, Pilot training & Aircraft maintanace. Not a good look for RAAus.

 

 

[Guest cficare]

you would probably have trouble finding a cable tie in the morgan factory at the moment......there would be millions of grommets though...