Old Bar Ferris Wheel Incident

[David Isaac]

Just read the report I think the Authoritys will have a field day with this one, especially with question marks around the registration, Pilot training & Aircraft maintanace. Not a good look for RAAus.

One thing we can be confident of is that RA Aus are on to all the issues raised by the ATSB preliminary report. So even if there is pain in the process all the loose ends will get tidied up this time. We have a new Board and a new executive and they are determined to clean things up and that is good for RAA.

Some times it takes a significant embarrassment to discover all the problems. Our Board is new and they are certainly moving on this one. They need our support at this time to do the right thing, even if the process is tough for us all.

 

 

[Guest cficare]

they have my support at this time.

 

 

[turboplanner]

One thing we can be confident of is that RA Aus are on to all the issues raised by the ATSB preliminary report. So even if there is pain in the process all the loose ends will get tidied up this time. We have a new Board and a new executive and they are determined to clean things up and that is good for RAA.Some times it takes a significant embarrassment to discover all the problems. Our Board is new and they are certainly moving on this one. They need our support at this time to do the right thing, even if the process is tough for us all.

Where did you read that piece of news then?

 

 

[David Isaac]

Where did you read that piece of news then?

Call it privileged information if you like, I don't know the sordid details and don't wish to, but I do know that the Board and staff are working long hours to rectify any shortcomings that have become evident in recent audits and investigations ... more power to them I say. In my humble opinion 'Governance' should be an area of significant importance for all of us, our collective reputations depend on it.

[pudestcon]

Hi Pud, When my thruster came from the factory it had every connection on the fuel lines held with cable ties. When I repaired it after the owners crash I replaced them all. I must say that after ten years they were still in perfect condition.

Well it seems like the cable ties may have been an approved item way back when then eh Terry?

Pud

 

 

[turboplanner]

Call it privileged information if you like, I don't know the sordid details and don't wish to, but I do know that the Board and staff are working long hours to rectify any shortcomings that have become evident in recent audits and investigations ... more power to them I say. In my humble opinion 'Governance' should be an area of significant importance for all of us, our collective reputations depend on it.

I agree it should by of significant importance, but from what you're saying it looks like the policy is secretive self congratulatory leaking.

 

Just took a look at the RAA website, and there's still no contemporary information there.

 

 

[Wayne T Mathews]

.... secretive self congratulatory leaking.....

Now that feels mean just saying it.

 

 

[Tomo]

Hi Pud, When my thruster came from the factory it had every connection on the fuel lines held with cable ties. When I repaired it after the owners crash I replaced them all. I must say that after ten years they were still in perfect condition.

Fairly common to see in this day and age, but I was shocked to hear it done on an aircraft.

 

Modern motor vehicles are all coming out with plastic clamps etc.., I guess it limits corrosion, but then so does stainless steel. Cheaper to manufacture and in some cases these days plastics are more durable than metal.

 

 

[facthunter]

Some of them( the ties,) are pretty good. If you are using worm drive clamps on small sizes use very thin ones that adjust to the rubber. Pressurised fittings are something else, compared to gravity feed, especially where vibration is involved . Tie wire the clamp to something as well. You can't be too careful with fuel lines. Nev

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

I agree it should by of significant importance, but from what you're saying it looks like the policy is secretive self congratulatory leaking.Just took a look at the RAA website, and there's still no contemporary information there.

I think it is a bit early in the process to be making that sort of inference.

We should not expect a blow by blow of internal processes, particularly before they have completed. The ATSB looks favourably on organisations taking "proactive action" to address "safety issues", and as part of its normal process will publish such actions in its final report, along with an indication of whether they believe the actions addressed the issues.

 

If any immediate safety issues are suspected, then they can be addressed with the affected parties directly, without going public, when in possession of only some of the facts. We don't need "knee jerks" that compound the issues.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

What a mess.

 

 

[ahlocks]

Sorry lads. Owing to the nature of the thread it's... please.

 

Messages have been moved to here;

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/motzartmerv-returns-moved-from-incidents-section.31769/

 

 

[David Isaac]

I think it is a bit early in the process to be making that sort of inference.We should not expect a blow by blow of internal processes, particularly before they have completed. The ATSB looks favourably on organisations taking "proactive action" to address "safety issues", and as part of its normal process will publish such actions in its final report, along with an indication of whether they believe the actions addressed the issues.

 

If any immediate safety issues are suspected, then they can be addressed with the affected parties directly, without going public, when in possession of only some of the facts. We don't need "knee jerks" that compound the issues.

Well said David,

As a further thought, I know there has been a fair bit of Morgan criticism as a result of the ATSB revelations but in reality how many others out there are flaunting the rules???

 

Unfortunately kit aircraft are only ever as good as the builder either has the inclination for them to be or as poor as the lack of skill in assembly. There are plenty of GA aircraft out there that I would not fly due shonky maintenance by LAMEs of dubious reputation. All sorts of short cuts have been taken in the past by all sorts of people. So in fairness to this situation making an issue of these Morgan discrepancies and singling out Morgan in the obvious knowledge that many of us have about shonky practices across the industry is perhaps a bit harsh.

 

The ATSB report clearly shows some unprofessional practices by Morgan, but I will speculatively guarantee there will never be another Morgan Factory Build aircraft with the defects the ATSB report revealed at this accident investigation because Morgan Aeroworks will have rectified their practices. What about all the other shonky practices out there in RAA and GA land, and products with alleged defects in manufacture, are they going to have a little private wake-up call over the investigation revelations in this accident????? How lucky were we not to have had a fatality as a result of this accident. How lucky have Jabiru been that one of their engine failures hasn't killed anyone yet.

 

This report will be a wake-up call for Morgan and for the rest of the industry who do SIMILAR things, we know this is NOT isolated to Morgan. In all reality everyone who has a Morgan is going to go over their aircraft and fix the things that have been highlighted or other things they may have done to their aircraft in their own assembly.

 

Every time there is an accident like this it will expose the aircraft involved to a fairly high level of scrutiny.

 

I'll bet there are few people out there who have put kits together and also factory build aircraft at the moment thinking " …there but for the grace of God go I ...".

 

Lets make sure we collectively take this on board as a lesson to all and not let it turn into a destruction of RAA and Australian Manufacturing. We know the problem, so does Gary Morgan, let us just collectively learn, fix the problem, and move on.

 

 

[68volksy]

I agree wholeheartedly David and feel a great deal for the Morgan "family". They got very unlucky in my view - i'm quite certain almost all manufacturers of "factory" RA-Aus aircraft would have very similar issues. RA-Aus has had very little input or oversight over the years into these organisations and as such they've been left very much to their own devices to decide what is right and what is wrong. There doesn't appear to ever have been a push for any sort of industry group formed by the manufacturers to set a standard for themselves. It'd be pretty rare to even see the manufacturers talking to each other let alone discussing safe practices. They're also selling their aircraft to people who, let's face it, generally would rather be flying than trying to decide whether the rivets in the aircraft have been inserted correctly.

 

It is sad that one manufacturer has had to be singled out by this instance rather than the industry taking care of its own to ensure such as this had never occurred. Maybe the remaining manufacturers out there might think of getting together to sponsor some sort of safety/quality group or individual? I'm a member of the Institute of Chartered Accountants and about 100 years ago they decided that it would be worthwhile to review each others work on occasion to ensure a certain standard of quality was being maintained by the profession. There's no valid reason the industry (or RA-Aus) couldn't commit to a similar undertaking.

 

 

[biggles]

" How lucky have Jabiru been that one of their engine failures hasn't killed anyone yet." - Bit unfair don't you think David ? If you read the Flight Safety magazine you will find that even Continentals and Lycomings feature prominently, with faults such as through bolts and a manner of other things . And how long have they been manufacturing aircraft ?

 

Bob

 

 

[dazza 38]

Nobody is saying that Morgan Aeroworks are the only company to have had problems.I remember reading a defect report.Where a 2 year old cessna, had a rib which was nearly missed completely by the rivet line. Only found after it was bent.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Sorry lads. Owing to the nature of the thread it's... please.Messages have been moved to here;

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/motzartmerv-returns-moved-from-incidents-section.31769/

Skillful and moderate moderating, moderator, whichever moderate moderator you may be.

 

Oops! we aren't allowed to comment about moderators are we.

 

 

[Guernsey]

Skillful and moderate moderating, moderator, whichever moderate moderator you may be.Oops! we aren't allowed to comment about moderators are we.

We need a thread for 'Moderators'

 

I could start off with............we used to have a lovely female rabbit (a doe) but my MODERATOR.

 

Alan.

 

 

[David Isaac]

" How lucky have Jabiru been that one of their engine failures hasn't killed anyone yet." - Bit unfair don't you think David ? If you read the Flight Safety magazine you will find that even Continentals and Lycomings feature prominently, with faults such as through bolts and a manner of other things . And how long have they been manufacturing aircraft ?

Hi Bob, Not sure what you mean. It is a pretty benign statement I thought, Jab have been lucky. Continental and Lycoming failures have killed a few, so again, how lucky is Jab?

Although it is rare to have failures under 300 hours and very rare to have failures on new Lyc and Cont. engines. Most failures on Lycs and Conts. are on rebuilt engines, some should never be rebuilt.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Maybe we should all go back the ferris wheel crash, the aircraft and the people involved because that's what the ATSB interim report is all about.

 

Hanging washing out on the line might seem to be fair, but it's not relevant to the report, and there are many things for us to take away and learn from and improve on and make sure we don't do.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Thanks Turbz ...

 

Just a couple of thoughts for us to reconsider in this very unfortunate turn out of events:

 

I have laboured on many points related to ALAs and what our responsibilities are as pilots operating into them and Turbz (bless his little cotton socks) has laboured on the points of responsibilities and where the bone may point.

 

In reality we know that the pilot's go around was late; but lets take a rational look at this. If his go around had happened anywhere else it would have been observed as one of those "holy sh!t" moments to any observer and he would have climbed away and probably given himself a bit of a fright and a wake-up call.

 

So what was different about this accident ... well someone had put a bloody Ferris Wheel standing 20 metres high just 34 metres East of the runway centre line and this just happenned to end up right in the Sierra's departure path ... So ...

 

Yes the pilot made a late call judgement and yes the pilot maybe should have been aware the Ferris Wheel was there ... but who in their right mind would put a Ferris Wheel there in the first instance.

 

There is little doubt that any of us with our aviation knowledge would have ever put a Ferris Wheel in that location.

 

If the Ferris wheel was not in that position this thread would not exist, there would have been no accident of this high profile nature and there would have been no investigation.

 

So to Turbz earlier posts ... there will be some joint responsibility / liability here and RAA should not bare the brunt of it.

 

Again I will say the pilot has ended up being a victim here just because he made an error of judgement in a go around that at any other location he would have survived.

 

The subsequent ATSB preliminary report has revealed information that had nothing to do with causal factors and the can of worms has opened on some practices that even a lot of posters had difficulty understanding are not 'Kosher' practices.

 

No one escapes some level of responsibility in what has been 'discovered' including RA Aus, so we need to collectively be problem solvers here, not problem makers, our sector depends on it. We all need to survive this including Paul, Gary Morgan and RA Aus.

 

Lessons have been identified, we need to move forward with the solutions and in all this debacle thankfully no one was hurt.

 

 

[Paul Cox]

Thanks Turbz ...Just a couple of thoughts for us to reconsider in this very unfortunate turn out of events:

I have laboured on many points related to ALAs and what our responsibilities are as pilots operating into them and Turbz (bless his little cotton socks) has laboured on the points of responsibilities and where the bone may point.

 

In reality we know that the pilot's go around was late; but lets take a rational look at this. If his go around had happened anywhere else it would have been observed as one of those "holy sh!t" moments to any observer and he would have climbed away and probably given himself a bit of a fright and a wake-up up call.

 

So what was different about this accident ... well someone had put a bloody Ferris Wheel standing 20 metres high just 34 metres East of the runway centre line and this just happenned to end up right in the Sierra's departure path ... So ...

 

Yes the pilot made a late call judgement and yes the pilot maybe should have been aware the Ferris Wheel was there ... but who in their right mind would put a Ferris Wheel there in the first instance.

 

There is little doubt that any of us with our aviation knowledge would have ever put a Ferris Wheel in that location.

 

If the Ferris wheel was not in that position this thread would not exist, there would have been no accident of this high profile nature and there would have been no investigation.

 

So to Turbz earlier posts ... there will be some joint responsibility / liability here and RAA should not bare the brunt of it.

 

Again I will say the pilot has ended up being a victim here just because he made an error of judgement in a go around that at any other location he would have survived.

 

The subsequent ATSB preliminary report has revealed information that had nothing to do with causal factors and the can of worms has opened on some practices that even a lot of posters had difficulty understanding are not 'Kosher' practices.

 

No one escapes some level of responsibility in what has been 'discovered' including RA Aus, so we need to collectively be problem solvers here, not problem makers, our sector depends on it. We all need to survive this including Paul, Gary Morgan and RA Aus.

 

Lessons have been identified, we need to move forward with the solutions and in all this debacle thankfully no one was hurt.

[Virago]

I agree ... well said David! John.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

no offence Paul, but if you can't see the ferris wheel on your downwind, base legs or finals, is there a problem with your sight? Did you ever do any EFATO training?

 

Would have been a totally different outcome for you if that ferris wheel had toppled over or your plane had caught fire.

 

 

[facthunter]

There MAY just ba a way of putting that a bit more sensitively, ft. At certain stages of your flying career you can be concentrating on other things a lot and not see the whole picture, and like many incidents/accidents this one had many factors involved. Rarely is it one single event.

 

I would agreee with the "training" aspect of this and that should be looked into ( general statement, that should happen in any similar situation Nev)