Old Bar Ferris Wheel Incident

[Powerin]

Could be a bit of trouble over this for sure,,,,I know a lot of people love these morgan aircaft but I would seriously be looking at some of the assembly practices, either the maintainer has modded the fuel system and brake line routing or it was done at the factory, either way it goes against the NCP for cars, let alone aircraft, really, zip ties instead of hose clamps, at least they put two on, not that it would make any difference, anyone had a joystick break off in flight ,whats the procedure for that, yeh it has two but unless the pax is a pilot could you imagine landing it using the other stick!!!

What about an engine mount breaking in flight? Doesn't bear thinking about.

 

 

[winsor68]

So... Who else its flying unlicensed?

 

This could (and with good reason) have major consequences... who else has been defrauded into paying for dodgy flight training and how wide spread is the practise...?

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/3525311/ao2011126_prelim.pdf

 

Out of all the points raised this one really sticks out.

 

:Examination of the Aviation activity associated with the festival:

 

Looking forward to reading the final outcome.

 

 

[Litespeed]

I am amazed at the defects in manufacture and repair.

 

Some very hard questions to answer as well

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Cant get into the ATSB site.... Must be a whole heap of bitter and twisted souls from PROON trying to download it..

 

 

[ossie]

Cant get into the ATSB site.... Must be a whole heap of bitter and twisted souls from PROON trying to download it..

and, there are none here ??

 

 

[flying dog]

Ok, my turn.

 

(I can't keep up with all the posts. So forgive me if I re-state things.)

 

The accident happened. There is nothing we can do about it now.

 

The "factors" involved are:

 

The PILOT - first and foremost.

 

The weather.

 

The plane.

 

The airstrip.

 

The wheel which was hit.

 

I can't really think of more, though some will say things like "the concil", "the operator of the fair" and so on.

 

But let's look at what happened:

 

Another plane had already landed.

 

This plane had already done a touch and go.

 

The pilot had overflown the field.

 

He didn't see the wheel.

 

The other plane didn't bother to mention the wheel.

 

If I am not mistaken from what I have read: This plane landed in the opposite direction to the other plane.

 

The pilot's skills.

 

Although it is nice to think that in a prefect world when something like this happens, the plane won't fall appart - and it didn't if I remember - the pilot's descisions prior to the event need to be looked at above all else.

 

It is a bit silly saying the plane's construction can't withstand impact "X" so should be faulted. The pilot put the plane in that situation and so may have put the structure beyond it's design limit.

 

Not only that, but the second plane's pilot not mentioning something along the lines of, "Hey silly, what are you doing landing WITH the wind. Use the other runway!" Would have gone a fair way to reducing the problem.

 

P.S.

 

The daily Tele. Pg 13 (Wendesday)

 

 

[Admin]

just having a look for the posts about the rivets letting go, were they some that were deleted or have they been moved?

No posts have been removed and I haven't seen any reason for any posts to be removed...it's either in the report itself or if a user has said this in a post and it isn't here any more then the user could have edited their post themselves

 

 

[flying dog]

OK, there were structural failures.

 

But it still leaves the question open for me:

 

Was there a compete/propper pre-flight done?

 

Did they fail because of things that happened during the flight or is it they were "neglected"/not seen for a long time?

 

 

[turboplanner]

just having a look for the posts about the rivets letting go, were they some that were deleted or have they been moved?

There's another ferris wheel post - split threads

 

 

[68volksy]

I wonder if there would be as much interest in the airframe/riveting issues if the aircraft was an owner-build... I think their could be issues with the fact it was a "factory-built" and the government has allowed ab-initio training to take place and people to charge good money for it.

 

Also an issue they could latch onto is why such an aircraft was allowed to overfly a public gathering. Their has been next to no interest into all the single-aircraft RA-Aus accidents over the years, even those where people perished, however this accident, where no-one sustained any injuries, could well be the most damaging for the fraternity...

 

 

[turboplanner]

I wonder if there would be as much interest in the airframe/riveting issues if the aircraft was an owner-build... I think their could be issues with the fact it was a "factory-built" and the government has allowed ab-initio training to take place and people to charge good money for it.Also an issue they could latch onto is why such an aircraft was allowed to overfly a public gathering. Their has been next to no interest into all the single-aircraft RA-Aus accidents over the years, even those where people perished, however this accident, where no-one sustained any injuries, could well be the most damaging for the fraternity...

That's often the way it is Volksy, this one goes to the culture of RAA and it's pilots.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

While we all probably realise that any accident has more than one contributing factor, this report blows me away in that there are just so many errors and omissions called out by the preliminary report, even if you separate the items that were not contributors to the accident.

 

So... Who else its flying unlicensed?This could (and with good reason) have major consequences... who else has been defrauded into paying for dodgy flight training and how wide spread is the practise...?

IMHO, this will go wider than just immediate associations as the investigation digs deeper. Firstly, it discloses a gap in the Pilot Certificate issuing process, which apparently fails to check if the application is submitted by an authorised FTF, but take that a bit further and it wouldn't surprise me if there are cases of non-compliant FTFs. ie. They are registered but are non-compliant with the registration criteria.

 

The problem won't just be invalid Pilot Certificates issued on the submission by any such organisations, but everything else they do as well...BFRs, L2 maintenance, Condition reports and resulting aircraft registrations. If the facility isn't a valid FTF, then its CFI cannot be a CFI either, invalidating any log book entries s/he has signed off.

 

 

[winsor68]

In my opinion this is going to be a BIG issue for Ra-Aus and its existence... if the facts as stated just so far are correct... then with very, very good reason.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Certainly fodder for the upcoming CASA audit.

 

I doubt that existence is threatened, but it is a wake-up call.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

The report states factory built. What it doesnt state is what happened between delivery and the flight in question. To make the conclussion that bad"manufacture" is a problem, to me, on the info presented, is a bridge too far.

 

The vehicle equivalent is blaming ford for a crap vehicle when in fact the features being discussed might well be a result of a smash repairer.... The rego number on the aircraft suggests its not that old, yet the claim that the serial numbers mismatch suggests something else.

 

There is much more digging to be done yet, and I suspect nothing but tears will come from it. Heres hoping that we all collectively dont have to contribute tears based on a set of circumstances that dont reflect the standard approach.

 

Please remeber that access to these forums is through a simple registration process so lets not provide speculation beyond the facts that others may then use as a blunt weapon. I dont know about you but I'd still like to be flying my aircraft responsibly in years to come. Each of these events affects the likelihood of that occuring

 

Andy

 

 

[68volksy]

RA-Aus has certainly come a long way from its inception in the ultralight/rag-and-tube days without anybody looking too closely at things. While there's been a lot of people pushing for further and faster limits for RA-Aus, there's been very little discussion of the appropriateness of the regulatory framework to such advances in aircraft design and capability.

 

The major failures of the regulatory framework highlighted in this investigation could well be the impetus for such a discussion to take place.

 

 

[Admin]

It may well say factory built but don't quote me on this but wasn't it Gary's own aircraft which he used it for his own development and that would make it a far cry from an aircraft that he would sell to a customer?

 

 

[68volksy]

I thought from previous posts it was (and now is again) being used in a flying school.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

It may well say factory built but don't quote me on this but wasn't it Gary's own aircraft which he used it for his own development and that would make it a far cry from an aircraft that he would sell to a customer?

The the phrase "stand by to repel boarders" might well be used a fair bit around Taree......

 

 

[Admin]

I also now know that with the ATSB saying that the flying school for the pilot was non-approved is because all they did was go onto the RAA web site and looked to see if it was listed in the flight schools page of the RAA site and it wasn't. It has now been confirmed that the Flight School was approved and everything is above board in terms of pilot and flying school licensing.

 

These are the problems with Forums, Posts and hearsay so hope you guys understand the issues that this site has in trying to administer the site properly so you guys are better informed and the Recreational Flying site is a respected source of information as best as can be humanly possible

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Still looks like pilot error if the witnesses on the ground are correct although they contradict the pilot's version, which if accurate would have put the plane a long way from the Ferris wheel.

 

CASA will have some interesting questions for the RAA about the issuing of pilot certificates, aircraft airworthiness inspections, pilots doing stunt flying etc.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Still looks like pilot error if the witnesses on the ground are correct although they contradict the pilot's version, which if accurate would have put the plane a long way from the Ferris wheel.CASA will have some interesting questions for the RAA about the issuing of pilot certificates, aircraft airworthiness inspections, pilots doing stunt flying etc.

Stunt flying is an interesting one, We are told dont do it, its in the rules books as dont do it......Much the same a speeding in a car, with the only difference that in a car if you act foolishly sooner rather than later someone is going to ring the police and point out that your an accident in search of a place to happen. With flying, other than the concentration around airports, there is rarely anyone to see what you are doing. No one from CASA or RAA flys about looking for people doing the wrong thing, nor should they, talk about searching for the needle in a haystack.

 

So, other than point out that someone disobey'd the rules, what can CASA say, not like its only a problem in RAA, as the accident report that Iggy drew peoples attention to around the crash of teh R44 down the south coast where the VFR rated pilot was flying well after last light....not like in a heli you can claim no where to put down... Rules exist...Fact! Some people ignore them some of the time....Equally Fact! Where that occurs, it should be between the authorities and that person not between me, or my organisation and CASA IMHO

 

Andy

 

 

[68volksy]

I also now know that with the ATSB saying that the flying school for the pilot was non-approved is because all they did was go onto the RAA web site and looked to see if it was listed in the flight schools page of the RAA site and it wasn't. It has now been confirmed that the Flight School was approved and everything is above board in terms of pilot and flying school licensing.These are the problems with Forums, Posts and hearsay so hope you guys understand the issues that this site has in trying to administer the site properly so you guys are better informed and the Recreational Flying site is a respected source of information as best as can be humanly possible

There are at least two RA-Aus personnel involved in the investigation so not too sure the statement that the ATSB stuffed-up is 100% correct.

 

 

[Admin]

There are at least two RA-Aus personnel involved in the investigation so not too sure the statement that the ATSB stuffed-up is 100% correct.

The ATSB report itself states it:

"A search of the RA-Aus listing of approved flight training facilities that was current at the time of the pilot’s certificate application, revealed that no such training facility existed under that name."

 

The search conducted was as mentioned...on the RAA website and also as mentioned...this has all been cleared up now.

 

The report also goes on to state:

 

"The investigation is continuing and will include the:

 

• examination and assessment of the conduct of the pilot’s training and issue of the pilot’s certificate"

 

so they are even confirming that they haven't got all the details correct in this regard at the time of writing the report