Old Bar Ferris Wheel Incident

[68volksy]

All i'm saying is that if the employees of RA-Aus who are part of the investigating team couldn't find the training facility at the time and now, one day after the preliminary report is published they suddenly are able to, then there's a chance there's more to the statement. At the very least RA-Aus's systems have let them down.

 

I think there'll be more investigation into the licensing and training questions.

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

The ATSB report itself states it:"A search of the RA-Aus listing of approved flight training facilities that was current at the time of the pilot’s certificate application, revealed that no such training facility existed under that name."

The search conducted was as mentioned...on the RAA website and also as mentioned...this has all been cleared up now.

 

The report also goes on to state:

 

"The investigation is continuing and will include the:

 

• examination and assessment of the conduct of the pilot’s training and issue of the pilot’s certificate"

 

so they are even confirming that they haven't got all the details correct in this regard at the time of writing the report

I inferred a slightly different meaning....

"A search of the RA-Aus listing..." does not in itself refer to a web site, and you would think that they would be referencing authoritative data, rather than a "school directory", which lacks the required information to draw the stated conclusion.

 

The FTF listing on the RAA website doe not indicate when (date) an FTF was approved (or indeed any that are de-registered), so the statement quoted from the ATSB report, does not gell with either possible interpretation of the quote:-

 

• Nobody could not have determined from that listing that the FTF was or wasn't registered at the date of application for the specified Pilot Certificate based on a listing dated months afterwards.
   
   
  
• The date of the ATSB query could not have travelled back in time to perform it at the time the application was made.
   
   
  

 

 

While ATSB do put the caveat on their report that facts may change in the light of further investigation, it would seem pretty sloppy to use an FTF listing from RAA web site in October / November and then cast it as being evidence of the FTF status back in May. I would have expected better. I've read a lot of their reports and they seem worded very carefully to clearly express their current understanding of the facts. Opinions and conclusions are clearly identified in separate sections.

 

 

[68volksy]

I took this to mean that there were or there is a possibility of further inconsistencies relating to the conduct of the training and process for the issuing of the pilots certificate which require further investigation.

Whatever form of transport that is operated in public is required to operate under certain rules and regulations. Some of these forms require the vehicle to be registered and the operator licensed. It should be the most basic of stuff - "license and registration please sir". If you can't provide either of these details immediately or there are inconsistencies then it is generally treated as a very serious matter, quite rightly so in my view.

[Virago]

Thank goodness it turns out that the FTF and the pilot's credentials may be no longer an issue. Concerns over those matters had the potential for huge legal ramifications. Let's hope that the investigation will pave the way for some game lifting all round without anyone losing their house or livelihood.

 

 

[Guernsey]

And let's hope that we don't continue to speculate UNTIL the final report is in with ALL of the FACTS.

 

Alan.

 

 

[Guest nunans]

If the above posts are true about the FTF being legit then todays story in the telegraph paints a false and damaging picture unnecessarily, though it's what the media do isn't it? Make every event as controversial and damning as possible, even if that means only high lighting the bits they want to..

 

 

[Ben Longden]

and, there are none here ??

Ossie,

I dips me lid, mate. You are correct.

 

You only have to read the theories and conjecture that come out of the ether.... sadly in this and the other ferris wheel thread.

 

Can we, and I know this HAS been discussed before, stick to the FACTS, and not theory. Oh, and while we are there, lets not come up with theories and try to make the 'facts' fit. Thats a News of The World thing. Not a pilot thing.

 

I know the ATSB and the RAA will leave no stone unturned in finding out the chain of events that lead to this incident.

 

 

[68volksy]

I quite like coming up with theories that "fit" the facts. I dare say everyone on here learns a great deal from doing so - there's always more than 1 way to skin a cat (or land an aircraft in a ferris wheel in this instance). There will of course be the actual facts that led to this particular accident but it's always interesting to hear of how others consider it might/could have happened.

 

As far as i'm concerned the facts so far are stated in the official ATSB report. If they were to publish an amendment on the facts as stated then I would consider that amendment. The report is a preliminary report at this stage so there's still a heck of a lot more to be published. For now I quite like the discussions of possibilities that could have led to the accident - every possibility could be a chance for me to learn something more to keep myself out of trouble.

 

The online forum is simply a chance to discuss possibilities outside of the realm of the "real" world. If I were to see someone's post on an online forum appear in a reputable newspaper or tv news then I would very much limit any and all discussions but this is extremely unlikely to occur due to the relative anonymity associated with these things.

 

 

[Admin]

Volksy, you are 100% correct in that discussions like this is a great learning tool and I don't think there would be anyone that would dispute that...and it is great that we can discuss these things even from hypothetical situations, all fantastic...the only thing is that we need to be mindful that we don't do any damage to a person or aircraft's reputation along the way until a court hands down a verdict from a legal stand point...again I don't think anyone would disagree with that as well because remember one day the shoe could be on the other foot. Sure, if a pilot or aircraft manufacturer did do something wrong, again that is for the courts to decide however that in itself would also be a learning opportunity because no one, I am sure, would like to risk their own lives and then again we all human as well and we can all make mistakes...and in that case we should be thankful to that person for enabling us all to learn from a mistake that was made...not crucify them...just my humble opinion

 

 

[turboplanner]

Very well put Volksy, there will always be some who trot out the old cliches, and some who have a hidden agenda, but these threads will always be great learning tools whether they stray from the official path or not.

 

In this case the official path indicates there's a lot of cleaning up to do, and very fast.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Truth is stranger than fiction

 

 

[Powerin]

I quite like coming up with theories that "fit" the facts. I dare say everyone on here learns a great deal from doing so - there's always more than 1 way to skin a cat (or land an aircraft in a ferris wheel in this instance). There will of course be the actual facts that led to this particular accident but it's always interesting to hear of how others consider it might/could have happened.As far as i'm concerned the facts so far are stated in the official ATSB report. If they were to publish an amendment on the facts as stated then I would consider that amendment. The report is a preliminary report at this stage so there's still a heck of a lot more to be published. For now I quite like the discussions of possibilities that could have led to the accident - every possibility could be a chance for me to learn something more to keep myself out of trouble.

 

The online forum is simply a chance to discuss possibilities outside of the realm of the "real" world. If I were to see someone's post on an online forum appear in a reputable newspaper or tv news then I would very much limit any and all discussions but this is extremely unlikely to occur due to the relative anonymity associated with these things.

Yes...given that the ATSB is investigating this incident we have been given a rare opportunity to be presented with the actual facts, the likes of which we never get in an RAAus investigation. The preliminary report has now given us the facts, and I would argue that the rest of the ATSB investigation is now examining/assessing those facts and "speculating" on the cause. Of course the ATSB has a lot of expertise doing this, but there is also a wealth of experience on this forum that could bring a lot of valuable knowledge to bear on those facts.

As long as it doesn't degenerate into baseless rumour-mongering or finger-pointing, speculation is good. Having been given the facts we now have the basis for a healthy discussion.

 

 

[Guernsey]

Interesting...the facts regarding the FTC were incorrect or at least very misleading.

 

 

[winsor68]

Interesting...the facts regarding the FTC were incorrect or at least very misleading.

As has been speculated.

 

 

[Guest cficare]

...i seem to remember lots of posts enthusiastically endorsing pilot/aircraft/builder pre the atsb report being released...are we becoming more circumspect???

 

 

[facthunter]

Although I don't think I am one of the above..

 

Modification of an opinion in the light of further information. It's Ok when it happens and a difficulty when it doesn't.

 

We still need further information, since some of it may have been wrong. Nev

 

 

[David Isaac]

...i seem to remember lots of posts enthusiastically endorsing pilot/aircraft/builder pre the atsb report being released...are we becoming more circumspect???

I certainly hope so, but enthusiasm can be blind at times ....

 

 

[turboplanner]

...i seem to remember lots of posts enthusiastically endorsing pilot/aircraft/builder pre the atsb report being released...are we becoming more circumspect???

They are probably deeply involved in inspecting their aircraft from the spinner to the last rivet.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

If only incidents such as these would lead to an introspective look at own practices, both in flying, decision making and maintenance rather than the speculative bet placing and judgement. The decisions and directions that come from accidents affect all of us, but the time taken from the moment you open the hangar to when you close it again is yours and your's only, you own every decision in between. This time is free and has been paid for by many aviators over the last hundred years and more. Look inside for safety- not in condemnation and opinion.

 

Every time we fail to lookout, drift off centreline, forget a check or let a few knots slide by on final we are only potentially seconds away from similiar, and potentially worse fates.

 

"The air like the sea is grossly unforgiving of errors in judgement." Want to be a judge- let's start and stop with ourselves.

 

 

[Thruster87]

If you are considering building/buying any aircraft due diligence is your first port of call.Look a little deeper then the advertising.I personally found with the kit aircraft I built, it needed extra bits and pieces [a thicker canopy, phosphor bronze bushes , nylon bushes and a bit of extra angle here and there etc].I was able to use my past experience as a LAME to plan on future maintenance and try to anticipate issues within reason.If you are unsure go and talk to your friendy LAME, L2 and have them go over it.It does make a difference especially if they have a good unstanding of the type/model.Cheers

 

 

[dazza 38]

I agree David .Paul is human like everyone of us.Things happen, we all, as humans make mistakes .I realy hope that he puts what has happened behind him. I agree with every thing else as well.The stuff is realy going to hit the fan over this one. Everything that is alledged so far, if correct .Is going to have ramifications to the whole industry.

 

 

[Ballpoint 246niner]

The stuff is realy going to hit the fan over this one. Everything that is alledged so far, if correct .Is going to have ramifications to the whole industry.

 

This my friend like death and taxes is for certain....

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Ian said;

 

"I also now know that with the ATSB saying that the flying school for the pilot was non-approved is because all they did was go onto the RAA web site and looked to see if it was listed in the flight schools page of the RAA site and it wasn't. It has now been confirmed that the Flight School was approved and everything is above board in terms of pilot and flying school licensing."

 

And this shows why interim reports are just that. They are not the FINAL report. Investigators are human, and errors will come up in the methodology. These errors are eventually picked up.

 

Sadly, such a mistake can be seen as a 'fact'. Again, highlighting the importance of being objective in maintaining facts from opinion; especially WHILE an investigation is under way.

 

 

[Powerin]

If only incidents such as these would lead to an introspective look at own practices, both in flying, decision making and maintenance...

I don't know BP, I sort of think that's exactly what's going on here. Sure, there's a bit of finger-pointing (some of it well deserved), but there's a lot here that will lead to better practices.

 

I think when an accident happens, especially a fatal one, we all think that there but for the grace of God go I. Discussions such as this one help us come to terms with and quantify the risks we take and give us information to mitigate that risk.

 

I don't know about anyone else, but on my next walk-around I'll be paying a bit more attention to the grommet where the brake line feeds through the skin, and indeed be more aware of the problems of chafing anywhere on the aircraft. I'll be checking the fuel (and coolant too) lines more closely for tight clamps in case the LAME was working on it on a Friday afternoon. When I eventually get to fly to an unfamiliar airport this accident and discussion reinforces the need to never take things for granted and always check runway conditions, obstacles etc. no matter what.

 

 

[David Isaac]

I don't know BP, I sort of think that's exactly what's going on here. Sure, there's a bit of finger-pointing (some of it well deserved), but there's a lot here that will lead to better practices.I think when an accident happens, especially a fatal one, we all think that there but for the grace of God go I. Discussions such as this one help us come to terms with and quantify the risks we take and give us information to mitigate that risk......

Absolutely agree Pete, is that not exactly what all this discussion achieves. It is certainly a wake up call for all of us no matter how perfect we think we are ... NOT. Some mistakes we see made may be obvious to some of us and whilst we may not (hopefully) fall victim to every example, every accident / incident is a wake up call to me personally.