Old Bar Ferris Wheel Incident

[Old Koreelah]

Crikey, Powerin, well done for putting such a positive slant on this mishap. Sure, we may all pay more in terms of insurance, maintenance time and training requirements, but we might also all learn something and increase safety. The great thing about our British system is that we use stuff-ups as engines for improvements.

 

 

[Admin]

Unfortunately there have been some complaints from site members about several posts that have been made...when ever a complaint is made the posts that are the subject of the complaint are simply hidden until the moderators have time to discuss the complaints and posts between themselves before any other action is taken. The moderators, after their deliberations, may choose to make the posts visible again, visible with some changes or remove the offending posts all together. Please give the moderators time to review and act in the interests of ALL site users and any legal implications on the site itself.

 

Please do not comment on moderation!

 

 

[pylon500]

AIRWORTHINESS NOTICE IDENTIFICATION NUMBER: RA-Aus 251111-2

Has anybody started a discussion somewhere else about this?

It would appear to be an oversight from RAAus that has come out of the investigation so far.

 

A list of which aircraft are actually under LSA would be interesting......

 

 

[Admin]

Guys, due to things happening behind the scenes I have been advised to remind all users of Rule 8 of the site's Rules that all users agreed to:

 

8. Indemnity and Legal exemption

 

User agrees to indemnify and hold Recreational Flying and its servants harmless from any loss, liability, claims, damages and expenses, including attorneys fees, arising from or related to the content, use, or deletion of User's Files, messages or use of any other feature or service in this site. This expressly includes:

 

• User's responsibility for any and all liability arising from the violation or infringement of proprietary rights or copyrights.
   
   
  
• Any defamatory or unlawful material contained within User's messages, private messages, emails, attachments, images and files.
   
   
  
• Content submitted to the site by the user
   
   
  
• Other content in the site
   
   
  
• Communication with site administration
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

[Bandit12]

There is always so much going on behind the scenes that so few people ever become aware of. Hopefully it doesn't curtail open discussion too much.

 

 

[68volksy]

The electrical wiring zip-tied to the fuel line is a great example of ignorance being bliss in my view. The aircraft was (and is?) being used in flying training according to previous posts - how many students would have pre-flighted that aircraft over its life-time and not picked that up as an issue? I must admit if I had noticed it and raised it (although to be honest I most likely wouldn't have noticed it) I would have taken my instructors word that it was fine and carried on. Now that it's been raised as a concern though i can rightly see why it should be avoided. I'll certainly have this in the back of my head from now on.

 

I can't imagine how many things the ATSB would pick up on if they started looking at more and more Rec aircraft. They're coming from the GA/airline side where issues in aircraft design such as the ones in the prelim report would have been considered poor form probably 80 years ago! The aircraft in the prelim report aside it's hard to believe that over 100 years of aviation has resulted in some of the machines we all see flying around...

 

 

[facthunter]

I don't think ATSB would be looking at any more aircraft. It's not their job to do that. Other actions may follow up these concerns. These items are not causal to the incident/accident but become noticed in such circumstances as we have here. Nev

 

 

[Guest nunans]

I don't think ATSB would be looking at any more aircraft. It's not their job to do that. Other actions may follow up these concerns. These items are not causal to the incident/accident but become noticed in such circumstances as we have here. Nev

I agree, alot of the aircraft issues that came to light after the accident did not contribute at all to the crash, sure they may not be ideal but some wires zip tied to a fuel line may never cause problems for the life of the aircraft.

 

I imagine if the ATSB was to fully inspect all RAA aircraft today, they would find something to report on most of them, but that doesn't mean they're all destin to go down in flames.

 

If the aircraft involved in this incident was flown into a ferris wheel, then what does that have to do with engine mounts and zip ties? I guess we'll find out in time to come.

 

 

[Guest cficare]

perhaps there is a suggestion that 'if events hadn't unfolded as they did....something much worse may have followed...

 

'

 

 

[av8vfr]

I have noticed a difference in standards in the 24 rego aircraft I have come across. For example, some have "fire sleeve" protecting the fuel line under the cowling, yet others haven't. As I have a military background (avionics) I have to "bite my tongue" as standards are different between RAA and my training. I am not a L2, only a RAA and GA pilot. For example, normally there are no cable ties in the engine bay, nor nylocs due to heat... but I have seen them everywhere on RAA aircraft.

 

And according to what I have read, if I alter my 24 rego (eg. add heat sleeving) without manufacturer's approval, then the aircraft is now not safe and illegal for training flights (non compliant).

 

So, in this example, can a L2 remove cable ties and add hose clamps to a fuel line and still be a legal 24 rego aircraft?

 

 

[Guest cficare]

it seems to be a strong suggestion that cable ties do not hold fuel filters in place....

 

i would suggest that if the a/c u fly (24 reg or otherwise) is in this condition...u change it.

 

 

[av8vfr]

That is logical... but what is legal???

 

 

[Guest cficare]

there is nothing illegal making things 'safe'......by securing the connections u aren't modifying the a/c

 

 

[av8vfr]

I am not trying to start an argument cfi, but if you modify a 24 rego in any way without manufacturer approval, is it not the approved aircraft it once was??? ie. adding, removing or altering a factory built specs.

 

Regardless if it is a safety issue or otherwise??? I don't know and therefor the question....

 

BTW.. I agree to modify for the sake of safety.. but it is not always black & white..

 

 

[Guest cficare]

i can see where u are coming from av....just can't see that replacing something defective with something effective is a modification...could be wrong though!!

 

 

[bushpilot]

A 'prune' is a plum from last season that didnt make the cut.. So sure, some of the traditional aviation establishment will fight to preserve some dignity as they wither on the tree... and some will refuse to accept the fact that Rec Aviation is taking some of the mystic and exclusivity out of flying and opening the skies to all.

 

(Disclosure declaration: Our school is launching GA operations - but this does not mean a move back to the 'grey side'; it's to allow our students to have access to career or sport progression to other levels of certification)

 

 

[Guest cficare]

they have released a preliminary (progress) report and members are commenting and discussing...which is a lot less than i'm doing on restricted rations in the wreck aviation website....they have got the money but i'm not a first class member, banned from chat, had years of contributions wiped in a moment of rage by a higher being,....

 

by the way its the ATSB...not the ASB.

 

I also cannot communicate with any member directly (via a conversation)

 

 

[av8vfr]

i can see where u are coming from av....just can't see that replacing something defective with something effective is a modification...could be wrong though!!

Aaahh.. CFI you and I can see the defect, but this is how it came from the factory.... so what now? Not everyone can see the potential.. "maybe, that is the way the factory (24 rego) got approved so maybe it is okay (from a pilot or L2 POV)."

 

I do speak up when I see something I don't like and hope all pilots are the same. (Much to the horror of my flying club!) Ultimately, we sign off the pre-flight and we take our lives and our pax based on a 10min walk around.. how long will you take?

 

 

[David Isaac]

[Reply edited by mod. Post removed as it was in abswer to the mods post which has been removed.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

The ATSB in this case has taken the opportunity to examine the aircraft, and have found some obvious deficencies, as highlited in the report and photos. I don't know if this particular aircraft is a true represenative of a factory built product, from this manufacturer.

 

I don't know if this is early production, or recent, and I don't know if the ATSB guys really care if this is a one-of example or not.

 

As an active Level 2 for over ten years, I can't ever recall seeing fuel lines secured by cable-ties., certainly not downstream from a fuel boost pump. Stainless clamps like most of us use, are not expensive, but cable-ties are real cheap.

 

These ATSB blokes know what they are looking at, and they have highlighted at least four items that are way below industry practises and standards, and simply potentially dangerous. I don't believe any had any bearing on the incident however.

 

On the positive side I don't feel this particular aircraft model is certified, and I don't believe there are any set standards currently for the manufacture of non-approved aircraft, other than a general requirement to work to recoginized, and time-proven safe methods.

 

I have no critisism of the PIC. He conducted the flight to the best of his abilities with his relativly low hours. His decision to exucute a late go-around was his alone, and except for the ferris wheel being there would probabily have been successfull, if a little ugly. If he made a bad decision to go around late, it is his alone to deal with.

 

The incorrect aircraft serial number on the RAA rego form should go back to the L2 who submitted the Ultralight Aircraft Condition Repot (UACR), if one was submitted for re-registration. I would have required one. And the L2 signs at the end of the report that all information is correct. May have been an honest mistake , but it certainly doesn't look good, especially for the RAA.

 

We will have to endure ramifications from this unfortunate incident, but how soon and how far reaching, only time will tell.............................................................................................Maj...

 

 

[winsor68]

Personally I find the report more potentially damaging to the system that is supposed to be overseeing our flying operations.. Some may lament the fact but self regulation is here to stay in aviation in Australia... these sort of things events don't just happen in Ra-AUS... All a regulator can do is set a standard... what we do with it is up to us...

 

 

[David Isaac]

On the positive side I don't feel this particular aircraft model is certified, and I don't believe there are any set standards currently for the manufacture of non-approved aircraft, other than a general requirement to work to recoginized, and time-proven safe methods.

It is certified, it is 24 Registered and it is used for ab-initio training ... Is that not of concern to you as a L2?

 

I have no critisism of the PIC. He conducted the flight to the best of his abilities with his relativly low hours. His decision to exucute a late go-around was his alone, and except for the ferris wheel being there would probabily have been successfull, if a little ugly. If he made a bad decision to go around late, it is his alone to deal with.

Likewise, as I said in my post that was deleted and I quote "I actually feel very sorry for the pilot (Paul), I am of the personal view that he has unwittingly been drawn into a trap of circumstances."

 

[Guest cficare]

reckon you are right win...RAA will/must lift the bar as far as overseeing the operations......just hope they dont pick the 'easy' targets and ignore the elephants.

 

 

[winsor68]

reckon you are right win...RAA will/must lift the bar as far as overseeing the operations......just hope they dont pick the 'easy' targets and ignore the elephants.

WE are Ra-Aus...

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Donald that's correct, And this will be the perfect excuse to impose or set standards. Problem is compliance with heaps of standards costs money. The standards are really already here, and have been for many years in the form of the FAA Ac 43.15 " Acceptable methods and techniques for aircraft construction and repair" .

 

CSA, RAAus and many others always refer to this standard when required, or at their conveinance.................................................................Maj...

 

ps: I'm hoping to fly down to Proserpine A/P tomorrow weather permitting, are you coming up for the Aero Club B-B-Q at all...always good to see you folks from Mackay...kicks off around 5 PM.