Can't see the ground

[hendonguy]

Wtf , if an instructor can see the ground , what hope for his students

 

http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/news/local/human_error_led_to_plane_crash_drama_1_3871207

 

 

[hendonguy]

Can't

 

 

[facthunter]

Without trying to be difficult, unless you are familiar with a situation like this your view on it might be slightly skewed. Night Vmc is a "horses A++e . When you make an error of track keeping and then try to establish some sort of visual reference by establishing contact with the terrain by descending " when you have already made an error of navigation ( track keeping), which you did not confirm by reference to VISUAL parameters, it's all coming unstuck, in a big way. Don't bother with Night VMC. Do a P/IFR rating, and have some idea where you are. Nev

 

 

[turboplanner]

Very wise words, brought home to us by a recent crash.

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

I have a night VFR rating which I gained in the US with my PPL. You needed 10 night landings plus a certain number of night hours. The idea was the skills were there if you got caught out after dark. It is night VFR rating, and you must have the ability to maintain a VFR reference at all times IE; visual reference to lighting on the ground, or visual reference with the ground itself in moonlight etc. You can plainly see the ground at night if lit by moonlight, especially if you are familiar with the area you are over. Of course it also give you the skills to land at night on a lit airstrip.

 

In the US where I flew, it certainly was not hard to maintain night visual reference with lights or vehicals on busy

 

highways for miles.

 

I have used the skills once or twice after being caught out unexpectantly after dark to much success, and I was much more confident and relaxed knowing I was trained to do so.

 

Certainly no substitute for a full IFR rating, but a N/VFR is yet another trick in your bag of tricks that can be very handy when you need it, and a pilot can't have too many of those !....................................................................................Maj...

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Further to my post above :.....

 

The authorities in this country have always had a bee up thier collective arsxx about the Night VFR rating. They would prefer you spend thousands of dollars you don't have, to obtain a real full instrument rating, which you then must spend more dollars on maintaining currency, on otherwise it is useless. If you obtain an instrument rating you'll probabily end up flying for a living, not be a sport pilot.

 

On the other hand obtaining a NVFR rating which can easily and cheaply be tacked on to you'r GA license training, gives the basic pilot valuable additional skills which can, and will, save you arxx when you need it. Additionally you don't need to spend additional dollars maintaing the skill as they are not much different to those we use in the first place to fly the aircraft during daylight.

 

Unfortunatly yet another archaic hangover attitude that our regulators have got from the original British system of control.

 

The yanks see it differently....Give them the skills with the basic PPL, and even if it saves one pilot after he gets caught out, it'll be worth it. Truth is it saves a lot of lives each year, but if you need it and don't have it, you'r up shxxx creek without a paddle ...bigtime!.................................................................Maj... (who else !)

 

Footnote: It cost me around 500-600 US $s in 1980s money to do another 10 hours or so, to add a NVFR rating onto my basic unlimited PPL............as I have proven a couple of times since..money damn well spent !!

 

 

[Guernsey]

I believe that a NVFR rating is useful and possibly life saving wherever you happen to fly, however, as your location gets closer to the equator nightfall happens much quicker and can catch out those who are not used to flying at those latitudes.

 

Alan.

 

 

[Guest rocketdriver]

Further to my post above :.....The yanks see it differently....Give them the skills with the basic PPL, and even if it saves one pilot after he gets caught out, it'll be worth it. Truth is it saves a lot of lives each year, but if you need it and don't have it, you'r up shxxx creek without a paddle ...bigtime!.................................................................Maj... (who else !)

 

Footnote: It cost me around 500-600 US $s in 1980s money to do another 10 hours or so, to add a NVFR rating onto my basic unlimited PPL............as I have proven a couple of times since..money damn well spent !!

hi Maj ... I did the same. Big difference I think is that the Yanks teach VOR and ADF in their PPL which, unless things are changes they don't do so much of in AU (well, as of about 25 years ago!).... so the night VFR navigation thing is not so hard .... you used to use the radio aids to re locate yourself as it were and don't need to descend into the side of a mountain in order to prove that it is there! and of course there is always GPS these days ....

 

cheers

 

RD

 

 

[naremman]

Changing the naming of a night rating to Night VFR a number of years ago was sound reasoning because it gives far better definition. When I attained my night rating it was called a Class 4 Instrument Rating, which was a complete misnomer. Night time was not considered Instrument time, but you had to sufficient proficiency to do a 180 on instruments when on a pitch black night one penetrated cloud and the rotating beacon was winking back at you via the cloud.

 

I contend that not all night flying is the same. A flight on a moonlight night in a well maintained and equiped aircaft, no terrain challenges and good weather conditions with a well rested pilot is probably going to have a good outcome. A change to even one of these variables and the risk factor increases significantly. Aviation is renown for not being all that forgiving. Unlike the lead for this thread, sadly there have been too many examples where the crew are not present to give their perspective to the ATSB with bingle with a NVFR component.

 

Some of my most memorable and satisfying flights have been at night, and I am certainly glad that I have experienced flight at night and had the benefit of the skills accrued. One of the best decisions I have ever made in my life was in the early 80's when we were doing a winter flight from the West to Victoria. We were planning PIR-BLT with the last hour at night. I rang Parafield Flight Service (back in the days when you could actually talk with a person) and the bloke said: "I will start with the BLT TAF". Snow, rain and cloud base info made the decision very easy. Found a motel, ordered dinner with a nice bottle of red, and accepted that we would be arriving a bit later than planned. That weekend two aircraft crashed in the East at night, with five lives lost.

 

I accept that night flying will not enjoy universal acceptance, but I still regard it positively if you accept the limitations, and act prudently and safely.