Engine goes quiet over Tiger Country

[Guernsey]

You meet all people here, we always used raisins.

Was that in the pudding or the aircraft gun (Grapeling Gun ?)

 

Alan.

 

 

[Wayne T Mathews]

Oh Lord: The Gatts having Gittens...

 

Keep the sunny side up,

 

Wayne.

 

 

[Tomo]

At the risk of being to serious.... modern technology is pretty cool, no doubt about that. Electronic this, sensors that, computer to hold it all together. It works great, gets us better economy, less stress etc etc etc... BUT!

 

When it fails, and yes it does, as anything man made is prone to fail one way or another. That's the end of it.. there's no fencing wire fixes (well maybe), you can't put leather hats as gaskets in a computer to stop the smoke coming out (though duct tape works for that!) Get the drift??

 

The beauty about the simple stuff is that when it fails, and lets admit it, it probably did fail more than these days, but, YOU could use wire to hold it together, or you could use a drum on the roof running into the carby to get you home. Or a 22 shell as a fuse, or silastic on the head gasket to get you back to the workshop when you blow it in the middle of no where. (true story - but it's hard getting the head off again!)

 

The simple old stuff was patchable, but these days if your car stops you call someone on the phone (tough luck if you got no service) and they will come out with a computer and plug it in and reset something so you can continue on your merry way. Whilst parting with $2k...

 

Yeah I like technology, I really do. But I hate the fact it can rule you, and when something does play up you can't just use a rubber thong to take up the slack. Technological communism

 

Here are a few famous quotes...

 

“There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.”

 

Ken Olson, Chairman DEC, 1977

 

“I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.”

 

Thomas J. Watson, Chairman IBM, 1943

 

 

[Litespeed]

To me it all comes down to appropriate technology for the intended use.

 

I do think that we use dinosaurs in aircraft but that is often the best choice for the intended use.

 

The fact that we pay a huge amount for a dino engine does annoy though.

 

I would like to see some more modern tech in them though. As far as mags go- they are generally very reliable just heavy and expensive. Other systems exist that are similarly redundant and do not need external power, but still use the induction coil method- just compact and cheaper.

 

AS a side note but still wing related-

 

The two best engines I have ever used in motorbikes were old school pushrod but excellent for their use and could not easily be bettered.

 

A BMW r100cs a worked flat twin that scared ducatis, I challenge any one to kill one through use- assuming oil is changed.

 

200,000km plus and still purred along.

 

The other was a Moto Guzzi Le mans MK111. This has also 200,000km plus and was as tough as the BMW but with speed to beat the ducatis any day.

 

So a push rod motor for the Guzzi that revved higher than a Desmo ducati, made more power high and low, and was lighter as well plus better economy.

 

All in a package that did the double century with normal maintenance. The Ducati was considered the better engineered as it had desmo heads- wrong it just made them complex and made them very specialized to service. All my friends had to do complete rebuilds at 40,oookm or risk total meltdown- some never made it.

 

Over the same lifespan and km's the better tech ducati would cost a minimum of $20k for rebuilds, the Guzzi none needed, same for the BMW.

 

Its all about horse's for courses.

 

As both these companies have made aero engines, context is covered.

 

But don't even think of a harley in the same breath. A harley in a aircraft is a recipe for disaster. (wish we had a vomit emoticon)

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...The simple old stuff was patchable, but these days if your car stops you call someone on the phone (tough luck if you got no service) and they will come out with a computer and plug it in and reset something so you can continue on your merry way. Whilst parting with $2k...

...

We sold a 2year old Pug.... car after it had to be put on a flat top and transported back to the dealer for a firmware update in one case and a computer reset in another. Intermitent problems continued where it would go into "limp home mode". better that "Stop now and call a tow truck" messages, but none the less undependable and the maker would not stand behind their product. Wrote to the importer and the response was basically "tough sh..".

 

Replaced it with a Mazda and that's a lovely little car, but I can't service it. Do all the light service work myself on the Prado, but not looking forward to the next upgrade when no doubt that will be a return to the dealer situation as well. Well the Diesel Prado is still going without anything except routine maintenance after 250,000Kms. No plan to trade it in in the forseeable future.

 

Me. I like that my Rotax has dual magnetos. They are a simple device and simple is usually more reliable than complex.

 

 

[facthunter]

Do you work on these things, LS? You should know that the Moto Guzzi's have very weak crankcases (In the middle) near the camshaft, and if there ever was a primitive motor about the V twin Guzzi is it . The motor was designed to power a generator, and you're right about Ducati's not doing high miles. They aren't really built that way. They are very light and plenty of people like them. They are very nice to ride though., and I never knock back an oportunity to ride one.

 

Pleas supply details of the aero engines thet these makes have built and some statement of how successful they were as I must have missed something somewhere.

 

Porsche made aero engines Unsuccessful. Bugatti made them too. Probably the most unreliable engines around at the time. Napier ? another story of a high quality complex motor that worked

 

People don't by motorcycles for practical reasons and high mileage motors, though you don't want the bad reliability of the Russian BMW R38 copy. The chinese have made them too. They buy a bike because they can feel an attachment to some aspect of it that they like to identify with. What suits somebody, someone else wouldn't be seen dead on. You have real choices with bikes. Everything from an MV to a Victory to a Triumph to an R1 to a Hyosung, to Scooters. To Harleys even!. We just always have to have a go at those don't we.

 

With cars, they are nearly all the same. What one could you say was personal? I suppose a Hummer IS different, since Centurion tanks have become hard to get lately. maybe a New Mini Cooper?. Years ago French cars were different. Now most cars look like french cars. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

lol David, your german must be getting worse. I am sure Rotax has 2 CDIs

 

 

[Litespeed]

David,

 

the modern electronics can be a real pain sometimes and in suprising ways.

 

Glad your happy with the Prado, as I have heard of several that when driven in certain ways will go to limp home mode as well.

 

One guy it was just using the road to his farm- almost evertime. Toyota was not helpful at all and blamed the driver.

 

It is often a problem with sensors that fail or trip to tell the engine to go into limp mode or stop completely.

 

Safety features can often be the culprit- a mercury switch is moved by vibration and trips- tells the car it has rolled over, so shuts the lot down. bugger to fix it you don't know it exists.

 

But some are much better than others. My 13 year old v8 BMW has never had a electronic or mechanical problem and has safety gear some still don't.

 

Certain commodores have a habit of eating ECU's as if Lord Lucas Prince of darkness was alive and well.

 

They are great when they work but a huge pain for some to fix.

 

I swear some are running Windows for Car

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

lol David, your german must be getting worse. I am sure Rotax has 2 CDIs

<comment deleted as it is incorrect and now moot>

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Is it a prewar 912?

 

 

[Litespeed]

NEV,

 

I have always down my own mechanical work and for many others as well.

 

I have never seen a Guzzi have a problem with the case near the cam. Is new to me.

 

Yes it could be used as a generator motor but was designed with other things in mind as well. In the 70's,80's it was the endurance racer specialist.

 

Guzzi motors were used by the Italians when they made drones for target and camera's.

 

I have ridden many a ducati and loved some, loathed others.

 

To say the old desmos were not built to last is a understatement. Run one hard for a long time and they blow bottom ends.

 

Yes to many bike riders that may not matter, but for riders that want to ride rather than repair and pay huge bills- it matters a great deal.

 

In years past, I did a lot of high speed touring- many tours ended with a dead duck at the side of the road. Try telling the owner- he should have expected such things would not be well recieved.

 

BMW - there are thousands flying in Europe using the bike engines and the company has a long history of aircraft engine making. WW2 remind you?

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Is it a prewar 912?

I stand corrected, FT.

You did force me to actually RTFM that part of the manual. It has dual redundant "breakerless CDI with internal generator that utilises trigger coils for timing", and thus does not need any external power.

 

It does comply with a simple design philosophy and has the following in common with a magneto:-

 

• No moving parts except the magnets.
   
   
  
• No excitation voltage for the generator.
   
   
  
• No battery power required for operation.
   
   
  
• Ignition switches apply a short circuit to deactivate the ignition.
   
   
  

 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

Phil I wasn't talking of the BMW. reread my post. ( and I am aware as much as most, of the various BMW motored German planes in WW2)

 

I was talking of the Duke and the Guzzi. The details of the weakness were discussed and agreed with a dealer and tuner of the Marque (Guzzi)so I'm not making it up, and the bevel drive Ducatis are extremely weak in the bottom end. The big end metallurgy was crook and they ran angular contact ball bearings for the mains which didn't last long. They don't even put out a lot of power, but they are sought after now. A round case 750 and a Mike Hailwood replica are valuable.. It's not for me to judge what people ought to be able to like in a motorcycle, without having a put down vomit emoticom requested. I do find that sort of comment "over the top". actually and I wish you wouldn't do it. Nev

 

 

[dazza 38]

My brother inlaw had a Ford Explorer 4 ltr petrol.My other brother inlaw owns it now. Anyway he was towing a caravan on the Gateway bridge in Brissy.A plastic bag was ended up in the engine bay.It started to melt on the exhaust Manifold.The computor system shut down the engine.Thats all good, put they didnt know what the problem was at the time.It just stopped dead, blocking a lane off. It was towed to a ford dealership,Ford found the fault a fixed it straight away. This is the thing, with modern electronics like that.I wouldnt be driving one across the simpson desert or anything. I will keep my 4.2 Ltr Turbo Diesel Patrol thanks.They are old school, dont make alot of power for the size on the engine, but they are reliable.

 

The explorer had been in the family since new.It has not had any other problems since than that im aware of.It has about 250 000 kays on it now.

 

Getting back to plug and play aircraft,electronic ignition systems.The beauty is that you can keep one original Magneto, and replace the other one, with a electronic one..And have the best of both worlds.Unfortunately it is on Aircraft in the Experimental Category. www.emagair.com these are the magneto replacements in on about.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

What you would want an engine fire on the Gateway Bridge?

 

 

[turboplanner]

I always used CDI on the race car, as much for the reassuring hum when I switched on as anything else.

 

I'd made up a spark tester and used to OK the system for 10,000 rpm with a 10 mm spark gap.

 

Was helping another guy with his car and he checked his magneto out - a big fat spark nearly 25 mm long - seemed enough to just about electrocute you.

 

 

[dazza 38]

What you would want an engine fire on the Gateway Bridge?

No . What im getting at, is that, if the same thing happened in the middle of no where, you would be stuffed because you can not re-set the computor.It is highly un likely that a little plastic bag is going to cause a Major fire.By the time the Computor shut down the engine.The Bag was already melted .

"Ford exploder stopped dead in its tracks by a plastic bag"

 

.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

just pull the lead of the battery! problem sorted. I find it hard to believe that anyone owned a ford explorer and didn't have a bad experience.

 

 

[Litespeed]

Phil I wasn't talking of the BMW. reread my post. ( and I am aware as much as most, of the various BMW motored German planes in WW2)I was talking of the Duke and the Guzzi. The details of the weakness were discussed and agreed with a dealer and tuner of the Marque (Guzzi)so I'm not making it up, and the bevel drive Ducatis are extremely weak in the bottom end. The big end metallurgy was crook and they ran angular contact ball bearings for the mains which didn't last long. They don't even put out a lot of power, but they are sought after now. A round case 750 and a Mike Hailwood replica are valuable.. It's not for me to judge what people ought to be able to like in a motorcycle, without having a put down vomit emoticom requested. I do find that sort of comment "over the top". actually and I wish you wouldn't do it. Nev

Sorry Nev,

 

my comments have seemed overly negative- I did not mean for the tone to come out the way it sounds.

 

I had never heard of the case weakness with the Guzzi, so it is just new to me. And fully agree about the ducati bottom ends- very weak design and a big money earner for mechanics. Even the Pantah models with plain bearings had major failures. I remember one breaking a rod and destroying the entire engine and gearbox mid corner when I was riding it- mid corner made for a scary moment.

 

I would love a round case ducati and MHR 1000 in any collection.

 

The Harley comment was not a slur at you, but their unsuitability for use in aircraft.

 

The vomit emoticon was about a suitable emoticon to describe my personal opinion of hogs- certainly not a comment on you or any one who likes them. Each person seeks different things.

 

Just like I keep seeing the Popcorn emoticon turn up but can't find it to use on the list.

 

My apologies Nev- no offence was intended- just typed faster than brain was functioning.

 

Phil

 

 

[facthunter]

That's fine Phil. No problems at all.

 

I don't fancy the style of the bigger Harleys myself, either, but At least they don't require you to be Mick Doohan to ride and enjoy one. Funny how some of the professional riders have a Harley to ride on off days. I don't like the way the company does busines particularly either, but they have a good finish ( paint and Chrome). I hate chrome.. and I have seen some high mileage ones that tow trailers across Australia. Hate the idea of a trailer behind a motorcycle too. A lot of them get worked pretty hard. More revs used, than they need.

 

I am a big fan of Aprilia's. Trouble is that I have short legs and can't get on some of the tall bikes made today. Until a few years ago, I got to test ride a lot of new stuff. My son has a lot of contacts still, in the game, and all the family ride bikes. I'm the MUGcanic. I'm the only one that flys (as driver) I must have put them off. Nev.

 

 

[Litespeed]

Yeah,

 

The speed merchants probably need something like a Hog to slow em down and relax.

 

Not a huge fan of crotch rockets either- my back is much older than the rest of me.

 

Aprilia make some damn nice bikes and would let any of them in the stable.

 

Chrome is not my choice either- if it shines it should be polished alloy or stainless.

 

I am a bit of a nut on polished alloy, and have all the gear still. But hate the mess of doing it.

 

A trailer on a bike, defeats the purpose in my mind- each to their own. A sidecar at least has style, I used to have a zepplin one.

 

Cheers

 

Phil

 

 

[facthunter]

A side car is special. Takes a bit of brain and riding well aheard. ( You wouldn't know that looking at some of the sidecar riders. ) A most unlikely vehicle being totally assymetric. You hate them for the first ride and get to love them after a while. Most modern bikes are too high mass distributed to be fun to ride. Bit off topic. Sorry folks!. Nev

 

 

[David Isaac]

Nev and LS, Your conversations may be off topic, but I find them fascinating. I have never been a bike fan although I have ridden various since age 15.

 

Back to the magneto subject, what I think is not often understood is that the magneto gave a significant advantage over the CDI types and that was that the impulse mag would allow a prop swing start as it did not require any significant RPM to fire. You cannot prop swing a Rotax 912 for that reason because I think you need around 300 RPM to get a spark and like wise with the Jabiru engine you need even more RPM to start them, which is why some are hard to cold start if you cannot get the RPM high enough.

 

 

[facthunter]

For a minimum aircraft , being able to "prop" them is a big advantage. You can avoid the weight of the starter and reduce the size of the battery to the minimum ( I did mention this in an earlier post) The act of just "nudging" a prop and having the impulse fire, gives a significant hazard.

 

Earlier on the "treat ALL props as though they are LIVE", had real significance. Today people lean on props all the time, because they are used to hanging around Rotax's and Jabs. (Still not safe or recommended).

 

A rotating magnet Magneto, ( derived from the Fairbanks -Morse design) is extremely simple. and the coil can last a long time. They do have points, but if they are made from the correct metal (tungsten) and the coil and condenser are matched, there is no erosion to speak of.. The distributor part is gear driven,nylon etc and is probably the most complex part of the set-up, but, (unless you run a coil pack) would be part of any system. Low tension magneto's are a possibility and are very suitable for high altitudes, where the coil is mounted close to the plug to avoid leakage of the spark. Nev

 

 

[Litespeed]

Nev,

 

What do you see as the future for the magneto?

 

Will better designs come out that use its principles?

 

I agree they are beneficial for hand propping, but is their a new way to encompass the advantages with a modern lighter system?

 

Phil