Sadler make Vampire two seater

[Gnarly Gnu]

Nice! Chain guns on a Jab would be cool too.

 

 

[Guernsey]

Bloody good Vampire.

 

Alan.

 

 

[Litespeed]

could we take collection and buy this Vampire?

 

Strafing the field during circuits would be great fun.

 

Or Maybe New Zealand can have a airforce again:augie:

 

 

[shags_j]

ha! Poor little kiwis. On the other hand they don't really need one, who would want to invade New Zealand...

 

 

[Guest Maj Millard]

Penguins have recently tried invading Shags......................they were defeated, imprisioned for a period and sent packing !...................................................Maj...

 

There has also been past problems with hobbit terrorists in that area.

 

 

[shags_j]

I assumed if anyone invaded new zealand they would just make them citizens then send them over here.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Talking of Sadler Vampires - just wondering if the owner of the one parked on its trailer beside a suburban house in a certain suburb on the eastern shore, is a member on here?

 

 

[Oscar]

The Sadler Vampire received an EAA award for 'best new aircraft' ( or something along those lines), many, many years ago - then demonstrated convincingly at Oshkosh that it was a potentially fatally-flawed aerodynamic design.

 

It is another example of aircraft that 'look interesting' enough to capture the imagination. For those who treasure their image above their desire for enduring mortality - go for it. For those of us who have a regard for our life... forget it.

 

 

[Marty_d]

What are its problems, Oscar?

 

 

[Oscar]

May have been sorted in later versions, but as far as I know about the story, the first one demo'd at Oshkosh did a pull-up and went into an almighty and very dangerous stall, the pilot managed to pull it out just before the ground but apparently it was a breath-stoppingly close thing, even the commentator got to the 'holy sh1t' stage. From what I've read, they are apparently reasonable to fly until things get hairy and then they get very, very uncomfortable; very pitch-unstable, I believe. I'm also not at all sure about this, but I seem to remember ( and am happy to be wholesomely corrected if I am wrong) very dependent on prop thrust over the elevator for adequate control, if the engine quits, I think you have a handful of problems.

 

They certainly look interesting, but the very few flying to me tells a story; someone was, I believe, re-building one down at Illawarra but I am not sure that it has yet made it back into the air.

 

 

[Marty_d]

Thanks for that. My interest in them is because of their low frontal profile (ie low drag) - I thought they could make a good airframe for electric conversion.

 

 

[Oscar]

That might just work... you have a lot more options for c/g etc. with electric ( I suspect, anyway).

 

 

[pylon500]

Although I worked at the Vampire factory for a couple of years, I wasn't going to get into this thread, but I'll just mention a few things.

 

At some point while I was there, a large fibreglass pod arrived, which was the beginning of the first attempt at a two seater.

 

It was dragged around to some of the shows, attached to a dummy centre section and booms, before actually being worked on in earnest.

 

Not a lot of thought went into it, just longer wings and beefed up booms, with little consideration for the centre section.

 

When ready to test, the DOT (CASA then) boys were invited, by the boss, to watch.

 

There followed some embarrassment when the centre section collapsed at 1.5g!

 

I should have taken more pictures, but back in those days photos were still expensive

 

From there, a new engineer was contracted to redesign the two seater from the ground up.

 

Many problems from the single seater were addressed, primarily the way the main U/C works the centre section when taxying, and the sloppy telemorse control system.

 

To that end, the centre section and cabin were combined into a single unit made from chrome-moly tube, the glass pod going back to being a shell.

 

The main undercarriage became a leaf spring attached to the inboard of the centre section, and all controls became alloy tube pushrods (I think?)

 

As for the CofG problems of having one/two people in front varying the balance point, this was partially solved by sweeping the wings back giving an apparent wider MAC (mean average chord) to lessen the effect, as well as longer tail booms for better moment arm.

 

The project got to the 'on wheels' stage before the company folded.

 

 

This prototype later appeared in Melbourne, owned by someone who wanted nothing to do with the original company, and renamed the aircraft the Kingfisher (I think again...?)

 

I don't think Bill Sadler had anything to do with this project, and we at the original factory, tended to take some of his advice with a pinch of salt.....

 

The single seat Vampires built in Australia, were quite different to the original American versions.

 

Ours had shorter wings, more power, thicker materials, suspension all round, a structural Kevlar/glass pod and probably some things I can't think of right now.

 

As for flying qualities, I found them easy enough to fly, if a little under powered with the Rotax 447 driving the flat bladed Ultra-Prop.

 

Some later machines ended up 503's and Brolga blades in the Ultra-Prop hub, these went really well.

 

Although they were fairly short coupled, they did have a big elevator, and a semi-symmetrical section with a low pitching moment.

 

Full flap was best used with a bit of power, but as for thrust powering the elevator, our demo/test pilot would regularly finish the routine with a dead stick landing and roll up the taxiway with the canopy open.

 

Aircraft always made an attention getting bang when shut down in flight from over run fuel in the muffler (no idle cut-off).

 

The company also sponsored a 'club' demo aircraft that could be flown if you were a member and checked out by the company demo pilot.

 

 

I think about five of us flew it..., this is a VERY old photo

 

 

[pylon500]

In doing more research I found an existing thread from a few years back;

 

http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/sadler-vampire-production-in-aust.7068/

 

 

[Marty_d]

Thanks Pylon, nice to get some information from someone involved in building them!

 

 

[Oscar]

Yep, thanks Pylon - obviously, the thing has been through a lot of 'variations' since the first Sadler machine - sounds like most of them for the better.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

these guys have taken up the challenge but not gotten very far

 

http://www.ionaircraft.com/

 

 

[Marty_d]

I like their website though. Good sense of humour showing through.

 

 

[SDQDI]

I love the disclaimer about cookies down the bottom, nice to see some humour:thumb up:

 

 

[Marty_d]

Have a look at their advertisement for the used Jab heads too...

 

 

[SDQDI]

Hilarious

 

There are little gems all through the site, in the contact us page and FAQs it all has a nice friendly, happy go lucky attitude shining through.

 

I don't know what they are like as a business but they seem like they would be good to deal with.

 

Ps do NOT take advice from me about the decency of any company!

 

 

[Marty_d]

HilariousI don't know what they are like as a business but they seem like they would be good to deal with.

At least they seem honest - "The current plan is to begin sales at the end of the flight test program, at which time we will have a very good idea of what changes--if any--will be needed to bring the plane into production.

 

This will in turn drive the final pricing and schedule. We feel that it would be irresponsible to take deposits before that time."

 

 

[440032]

Many many years ago (15?) I saw what was left of the "Kingfisher" in a hangar at Barwon heads VIC. The more Ron Fisher did to it, the less of it there was. He claimed it to be his own work, (but had previously advertised it for sale as the factory 2 seat prototype.) He had ex RAN test pilot Keith E test fly it once or twice, and I believe he found it somewhere between unpleasant and frightening. When I saw it, it was butchered beyond belief, the engine had all sorts of crappy cooling shrouds all over it, the tailbooms were being replaced with heavy 6x3 or 8x4 inch alum box sections, supposedly because the originals started flexing wildly in flight Ron was telling me, it had about a dozen or more 2lt milk bottles on the floor of the nose for flight ballast, it was in a real state. Ron's then mad-scientist plan was to make it into a push-pull twin, with two Jabiru 2200's, with the front engine being the extra required ballast. The more he modified it, the less of it there was. It was beyond saving by then by the look of it. Dunno what happened to it. The End.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

The basic problem with the Vampire and the Ion is the twin boom design isn't very efficient.

 

The best pushers are single boom with the prop above the boom

 

 

[flyvulcan]

The basic problem with the Vampire and the Ion is the twin boom design isn't very efficient.The best pushers are single boom with the prop above the boom

Less "efficient" in what way? Structurally, aerodynamically, financially...?

 

There are benefits and drawbacks to both single and twin boom configurations. Single boom pushers are generally a little lighter than twin boom pushers. However, the twin boom configuration can often allow the thrust line and cg to be spaced closer in the vertical plane thereby reducing the pitch up/down with power application. Also, the twin boom configuration can facilitate a fuselage pod with less height.

 

These are just some of many compromises for each configuration and at the end of the day, the designer will determine which "efficiencies" are his priority and design accordingly.

 

I don't feel that it is justified to knock the twin boom configuration of the Vampire. It has it's pros and cons but at the end of the day, the performance of the Vampire is quite reasonable for the powerplants that have been fitted and anecdotal reports that I have heard about the handling of the new Vampires (from Ken Garland - see http://garlandaerospace.com.au) are that handling qualities are reasonable.