582 Oil Injection Removal

[Tex]

I am thinking I will take off my Oil injection system.

 

What is involved: Do I just buy a cover plate for the pump inlet?

 

What about the oil injections holes into the carb manifold... how are they covered blocked with something?

 

Cheers

 

 

[skeptic36]

I am thinking I will take off my Oil injection system.What is involved: Do I just buy a cover plate for the pump inlet?

 

What about the oil injections holes into the carb manifold... how are they covered blocked with something?

 

Cheers

Hi Tex,

I used to think I was better off putting the oil in myself in case of pump failure, but apparently this is rare.

 

As I understand it the motor is better off with oil injection because at times of low power requirement it is still receiving the correct amount of oil but with premix when you reduce the fuel you are also reduce the lubricant.

 

Hope that I have that right and that it is understandable. Nev will probably have something to say (he knows stuff )

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Doug Evans]

I am putting my back on my new 582 feel its a better system then mixing and these day the systems are much more reliable ...

 

 

[farri]

Tex, What is the reason for removing the oil pump?

 

Frank.

 

 

[Tex]

Hi Tex,I used to think I was better off putting the oil in myself in case of pump failure, but apparently this is rare.

As I understand it the motor is better off with oil injection because at times of low power requirement it is still receiving the correct amount of oil but with premix when you reduce the fuel you are also reduce the lubricant.

 

Hope that I have that right and that it is understandable. Nev will probably have something to say (he knows stuff )

 

Regards Bill

Hi Bill, How does the lubricant reduce with less power? If it is getting fuel isn't it getting lubricant... pre mixed that is

 

I am putting my back on my new 582 feel its a better system then mixing and these day the systems are much more reliable ...

If I had a brand new engine I might do the same...

 

Tex, What is the reason for removing the oil pump?Frank.

Mine is old. It is leaking and I think it is coming from the check valve/s (Dripping down the black oil lines and blowing out the back). Either they have dirt or grit in them OR the valve is not closing right even though the marks line up at idle. The throttle and injection cables needed adjustment (as they were real loose and needed to take up slack) and at that time we realigned the oil injection cable and lengths as well. It leaked a 'little' before but now it seems like a 'little' more.

I want to take it off because it is leaking and perhaps reduce drag and weight a little. Primarily though I am thinking I will do this because it is less complicated, less to go wrong. I have heard the various arguments and was myself stuck on the post mix because I trusted it and it is more convenient and you can carry more oil for longer flights easier. The more I contemplate it and hear opinions each way there does appear to me less risk with the pre-mix. Case in point is my scenario here: just how much oil is getting in with the fuel and how much is leaking out? All you can go by is total consumption.

 

As I see it you don't really know what your oil injection is doing at any given moment, we know they add LESS oil at times. More complicated means more risk (even if unlikely).

 

With Pre mix it means having to carry an extra container (or more oil elsewhere) and besides what Bill says above there doesn't seem to be many other problems besides the pilot that can go wrong.

 

Any tips on the changeover requirements?

 

 

 

[Tex]

PS I had the injection system explained to me recently and it is suboptimal IMO. I understand it alternates between carbs... a drop here and a drop there?

 

 

[skyfox1]

Hi Tex l would remove it if it is not functioning properly ,you cant go wrong with premixed fuel ,you know it is getting the right mix .

 

cheers Geoff..

 

 

[skeptic36]

Hi Bill, How does the lubricant reduce with less power? If it is getting fuel isn't it getting lubricant... pre mixed that is

Hi Tex,

Don't get me wrong I'm not an expert, but as I understand it , if you are on a long decent for instance and you have throttled back completely then there is only enough fuel going in to support the engine at idle but it may be doing a lot more than idle due to prop windmilling, or if you are climbing then immediately throttle off the fuel flow slows immediately but momentum keeps the motor spinning for a while. At these times with premix the lube is reduced per revolution the same time as the fuel. With the oil injection system the correct amount per revolution is still supplied regardless of how much petrol is going in.

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[Tex]

Hi Tex l would remove it if it is not functioning properly ,you cant go wrong with premixed fuel ,you know it is getting the right mix .cheers Geoff..

Yes Geoff, that is what I am thinking, it's function is in doubt.

 

 

[Tex]

Hi Tex,Don't get me wrong I'm not an expert, but as I understand it , if you are on a long decent for instance and you have throttled back completely then there is only enough fuel going in to support the engine at idle but it may be doing a lot more than idle due to prop windmilling, or if you are climbing then immediately throttle off the fuel flow slows immediately but momentum keeps the motor spinning for a while. At these times with premix the lube is reduced per revolution the same time as the fuel. With the oil injection system the correct amount per revolution is still supplied regardless of how much petrol is going in.

Regards Bill

Thanks Bill I understand now

It sounds to me like a measurable risk also, but I think I could overcome that a lot with good engine management. I was taught not to be ham fisted on the throttle with the 2 stroke and avoid those long periods of decent at no power, even add some power smoothly for very a short period on other wise good glide approaches just to keep the engine in the right condition for a go around. Run the engine smoothly and with those points in mind it occurs to me you should be able to assist good fuel/oil.

 

cf the risk of flying over unavaoidable unlandable terrain wondering if the engine is getting the right oil at power.

 

Interesting.

 

 

[facthunter]

The point of having less oil on descents with premix, is a valid one, but I wonder whether in practice it is a problem. Years ago a mate of mine raced a Bultaco at bathurst using premix and had trouble on the conrod straight with a long back-off, and installed a foot operated pump to give it a couple of shots. No motorcross two stroke I know of has a pump. They use premix.

 

The neat fuel must tend to wash off the oil on the piston skirt as it's going down the hole like a spray gun mist . The Pump puts a drop of oil in now and again. At that point hardly satisfactory in my opinion.

 

Two strokes operate with very marginal oiling. With premix at least you know that when fuel goes in, oil goes in with it. With the throttle closed there is no fuel washing oil off parts.

 

Most two strokes fail at high power settings due to lean mixtures. One possible cause of that is the oil not being mixed evenly or at the wrong ratio. The carburetter has to be tuned for the pre-mix, so may need the needle raised and/or the mainjet increased or the cut away reduced, the last one being the least likely to be needed. The engine should preferrably be run dry of fuel after the last flight so as to not leave oil residue in the passages of the carburetter when the fuel evaporates.

 

Mixed fuel doesn't last as long in storage, and should be used without delay. Nev

 

 

[robinsm]

On a recent flight to Holbrook for the return to Holbrook weekend, I measured the amount of fuel and the amount of oil used during the flight. I have an oil injection unit on the blue head 582 mainly for convenience when doing very long flights and having to rely on avgas pumps. The oil to fuel used ratio worked out at exactly the same amount as if I had used premix. That was measured over 60lts fuel used and 1.2 lts activ 2T

 

oil. I was impressed and dont seem to have a problem with injection. I'm keeping mine on.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

The point of having less oil on descents with premix, is a valid one, but I wonder whether in practice it is a problem. Years ago a mate of mine raced a Bultaco at bathurst using premix and had trouble on the conrod straight with a long back-off, and installed a foot operated pump to give it a couple of shots. No motorcross two stroke I know of has a pump. They use premix.The neat fuel must tend to wash off the oil on the piston skirt as it's going down the hole like a spray gun mist . The Pump puts a drop of oil in now and again. At that point hardly satisfactory in my opinion.

Two strokes operate with very marginal oiling. With premix at least you know that when fuel goes in, oil goes in with it. With the throttle closed there is no fuel washing oil off parts.

 

Most two strokes fail at high power settings due to lean mixtures. One possible cause of that is the oil not being mixed evenly or at the wrong ratio. The carburetter has to be tuned for the pre-mix, so may need the needle raised and/or the mainjet increased or the cut away reduced, the last one being the least likely to be needed. The engine should preferrably be run dry of fuel after the last flight so as to not leave oil residue in the passages of the carburetter when the fuel evaporates.

 

Mixed fuel doesn't last as long in storage, and should be used without delay. Nev

I had a few two stroke bikes, several versions of the old Kawasaki triples and a couple of yammy twins. Holed pistons and nip ups caused by high speed leaning is a fuel mixture problem(heat) and lubrication will not prevent it. The pump will still be delivering oil even tho the fuel air mixture is leaning. There should always be a good mixing of the fuel and oil as it compresses in the crankcase. Twice the 750 blew the centre piston due to running out of fuel at high speed, shortest hose on the centre carb, and again when i rejetted too lean and it nipped up at high speed when i backed off a bit. I would not recommend running an engine dry even at idle. If you have a two stoke mower just turn off the fuel and run it dry.(The old Victa is a good example.) The RPM runaway as it runs out will scare you. Be interesting to fit an EGT and see what the peak is. I never had a problem with any oil pump on those bikes. They were Mukuni from memory. The later model 750 upped the number of delivery points for the oil to include the main crank bearings/seals and these pumps are proportional in their delivery amount. Throttle closed pump closed.

 

Many do not realise is when you add oil to the fuel you are changing the amount of fuel in the fuel air mix and inadvertantly leaning the engine out. If you are going to remove the pump you will have to re tune.

 

Ozzie

 

 

[skeptic36]

Thanks Bill I understand now It sounds to me like a measurable risk also, but I think I could overcome that a lot with good engine management. I was taught not to be ham fisted on the throttle with the 2 stroke and avoid those long periods of decent at no power, even add some power smoothly for very a short period on other wise good glide approaches just to keep the engine in the right condition for a go around. Run the engine smoothly and with those points in mind it occurs to me you should be able to assist good fuel/oil.

 

cf the risk of flying over unavaoidable unlandable terrain wondering if the engine is getting the right oil at power.

 

Interesting.

Hi Tex,

It is certainly a manageable thing, I know this because it is something I have to do with my old grey top 582, but I think those Rotax people probably changed it because the new set up is better (usually there are two reasons for upgrades particularly in the automotive industry, either it is better or cheaper to build and I don't think oil injection would be cheaper).

 

Good luck with it whichever way you decide to go.

 

Regards Bill

 

 

[farri]

Tex, I`m interested to know, how many hours the engine has done, with the oil pump.

 

Of the four 582, grey head that I`ve had and used for flight training, the first one was oil injected and did the most trouble free hours....680 hrs.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Tex]

It is a grey top with nearly 300 TSO, compression and cyclone bearing test are good. TT is unknown. Using 16lph the last two trips I did and oil use was 387ml per 20l (not sure what is blowing away in the wind though). I would be happier if it was a new engine and pump with injection. The other problem I have it is being run on synthetic and I want to go to Active 2T.

 

Anyone got any advice on the required items? Cover plate only?

 

 

[facthunter]

Changing oils over . Don't think there is a problem . Just drain all the old fuel and go straight onto the new and run it for a while on the ground to distribute it ( If you're worried). The oil that won't mix is Castor based and only mixes with Methanol. ( and it doesn't do that particularly well either).

 

Ozzie, another reason that oil in fuel leans it out is the viscosity is changed, by adding it and it doesn't flow as much. Those Kawasaki triples had problems with bore distortion due to the "bond" between the iron liner and the aluminium around it being non existant, in spots.

 

Big end life is fairly finite with roller bearings, regardless of the oil. ( as long as you get enough to keep the cages happy). The cause of eventual failure is pitting of the hard surface due to fatigue of the rollers running across it and pressing with a line contact many times so it eventually flakes off in small pieces.

 

Commercial reasons , ( a convenience, selling point), would be important to the adding of an oil pump to the 582 and possibly due to failures where neat petrol is used (forgetting to add the oil). You might find that the overall rate of oil consumption might be less too, permitting a more "green" look.

 

Some Suzuki two strokes went to a lot of trouble to get oil to all parts of the engine directly, but didn't seem to last any longer for their trouble.

 

With Scotts, ( they are an english two stroke motor cycle) the oil feed is needed to keep the labyrinth seals working , but I cut the pump back and add a bit of oil to the petrol, as well. I don't believe the piston skirt gets a reliable supply otherwise.

 

Regarding blanking off. ( cover plate only) I'm not sure about cutting off the oil and leaving the pump turning. I haven't done it with a 582, but when I do it on a motorcycle I remove the pump . Nev

 

 

[dazza 38]

I had a Suzuki TS 185 2-stroke when I was about 12.It had a seperate Oil reservoir . It was very reliable, couldnt kill it ,if that helps.

 

 

[Tex]

Contacted Bert Floods and you just need the cover plate and gasket and then run tube between the two carb inlets. Looks like it might have the wrong tube on it so will try replacing those and clamps first... This is because I have the fuel drawing from the bottom tank and so will always be left with at least 10-15 litres (unusable on this set up which is ridiculous but that is another thread topic) in there which I don't want to leave in all the time as pre mix. Would have to consider transfer system to run off top tank I guess. Opinions on that?

 

 

[Tomo]

Would have to consider transfer system to run off top tank I guess. Opinions on that?

My first mod if I bought a Drifter with belly tank suction Tex, that unusable fuel that sits in there is pretty useless when you need it. Smokey just changed his 582 over to be the same as his 503. Much better system if you ask me.

 

 

[farri]

This is because I have the fuel drawing from the bottom tank and so will always be left with at least 10-15 litres (unusable on this set up which is ridiculous) Opinions on that?

Tex, I`ve had my belly tank for 20 years and I`ve always drawn the fuel for the motor from the belley tank and always will.

 

The first thing I did before installing it, was to modify the outlet so that the fuel is being picked up from the middle of the tank...The standard tank picks up the fuel from the very back of the tank and this means that there can be a considerable amount of fuel in the tank but not be available to the engine on a steep nose down attitude.

 

I took out the outflow fitting, took the gauze strainer off it then brazed a 5/16 th coper pipe to it and soldered the gauze strainer on to the end of the copper pipe.

 

I made the length of the copper pipe to be in exactly the middle of the tank, front to back. This means that with either a nose high or low attitude, the same amount of fuel is available.

 

Unless I`m going on a long flight,I only use the belly tank. Much easier to fuel up. I have an electric fuel pump and use it to fill the carbies on start up and take off. Once in the air I switch it off. The Rotax diaphragm pump has no trouble sucking from the bottom tank and I can switch the pump on any time I need to.

 

I know that a lot of Drifter guys draw out of the top tank and use an electric pump to transfer fuel from the belly tank to the top tank...I don`t like this... If the electric pump was to fail in flight, the belly tank could be full, but the fuel wouldn`t be available to the motor.

 

Frank,

 

 

[Tex]

Frank that is the best solution I have heard, I like it a lot. The question is will you make another one

 

 

[farri]

Frank,The question is will you make another one

Tex, If it wasn`t for the liability issue, I`d be happy to.

 

If you decide to do what I`ve done, mark the outlet fiting before you unscrew it so that it screws back to the same position.

 

Before screwing the whole thing back in, hold the outlet fiting in the position that it will be when it`s back in the tank, then bend the coper pipe a little so that the end of it wlll rest on the bottom of the tank,once in place.

 

Frank.

 

 

[Kiwi]

It is a grey top with nearly 300 TSO, compression and cyclone bearing test are good. TT is unknown. Using 16lph the last two trips I did and oil use was 387ml per 20l (not sure what is blowing away in the wind though). I would be happier if it was a new engine and pump with injection. The other problem I have it is being run on synthetic and I want to go to Active 2T.Anyone got any advice on the required items? Cover plate only?

Hi Tex.

 

You only have to remove the gear from the pump.

 

Come see me at Boonah on Sunday.

 

Kiwi

 

 

[Tex]

Thanks Kiwi, working this Sunday unfortunately. Maybe the next, I'll give you a call