Accident Reports

[barandbrew]

Bushpilot

 

My reply was to TECHMAN sorry I didn't direct this correctly. Your both Chris

 

Regards

 

John

 

 

[bushpilot]

BushpilotMy reply was to TECHMAN sorry I didn't direct this correctly. Your both Chris

Regards

 

John

Hi John - I wasn't replying to your point - just addiing to the observations in this tread in general. Thanks for clarifying anyway...

 

Cheers

 

Chris

 

 

[Guest Juliette Lima]

One or two posts here suggest a possible lack of awareness of RAAus progressive reporting in respect of airworthiness issues resulting from accidents...I refer only to possible failures which may have resulted from apparent structural or cable failure etc.

 

For those who may not know,..(there may still be one or two).... the Recreation Aviation Australia site has an extremely comprehensive airworthiness and other notices section relating to the current fleet of aircraft on its register. These notifications go back many years. The RAAus mag also publishes AD's and other advice or alert notifications to aircraft owners in its monthly mag, as potentially dangerous weakneses become apparent in different types....these resulting from engineer/owner reportings or first summations as to accident causes.

 

JL

 

 

[Captain]

The following has been relocated from the thread about the Cooktown accident discussion to hopefully advance discussion here.

 

Quote:

 

How about we speculate that the carbon fibre prop on the Rotax 914 in that Jabiru may have de laminated due to a crankshaft failure caused by high humidity when using experimental ethanol fuel produced from rice at Ord River in 2006.

 

OK lets go.............................

 

The RAA do not yield very much info at all. I know the problem with fatals etc, police not ATSB ....however the incidents and accidents part of the mag is hardly in depth is it. Its nothing more than a summary.

 

I have learned far more on here than from the mag.

 

Maybe compared to the other organisations like the gliding of hang gliding org's but compared to the ATSB (i know big$$$) its pretty well non existing.

 

J

 

Dear J

 

 

 

That is different to saying ".... RAA never report ....".

 

 

 

I think the RAA do a reasonable job on accident reporting and discussion of selected specific cases, given their resources.

 

 

 

I contrast that with the GFA which handle this abysmally, I assume in an attempt to maintain their marketing line that Gliding is "Safe & Affordable" .... both claims being incorrect (although it is not "unsafe" either). With the GFA I have twice offered to draft up non-incriminating accident reports for further editing or approval by the management but they do not want this matter progressed and just report selected accidents every 6 months or so.

 

 

 

While I think you have been a bit hard on the RAA in your post, there is always room to do accident reporting better and I'm about the make the same offer to the RAA, as more information on specific accidents will always offer a great learning tool to the members ..... and such reports do not need to be at all incriminating.

 

 

 

Your observation in the last para is, of course, correct but I contend that it is not valid to compare the reporting by the ATSB with that of the RAA.

 

 

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

 

[Guest J430]

Captain

 

I do receive and read almost cover to cover every RAA mag, and I have seen barely a handful of reports. I understand that fatal accidents have a different course to follow and its not the RAA that control it. All others though are fair game and while some are adequate in coverage with a single paragraph about a nose wheel failure etc, many could be far better done.

 

The few accidents written up in the last 5 years you can count on one hand.

 

I am not being hard on the RAA in my other post at all. Its the plain facts. I have never said anything like they are a bunch of secretive usless etc etc or other slanderous type remarks that I have heard in the past. I do believe they do a good job overall, however, good reporting on accidents and incidents is good educational material, and I stand by my earlier comments about the lack of it.

 

J:thumb_up:

 

 

[Yenn]

There is a difference between accidents reported to RAAus and those reported in the magazine. I have put in two reports over the years and neither of them got into the magazine, that does not mean that RAAus don't worry about reporting. It just means that the editor thought that there was something better to put in the magazinne.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I once put in an incident report and it was completely re-worded.

 

It was something like this.

 

'Flight was completed in slight rain. Upon next takeoff power reduced on takeoff by some 1,000 rpm. Problem was found to be moisture in the carby balancing tubes due to the aircraft flying through rain.'

 

and was changed to:

 

'The aircraft completed a local flight and was left to sit for a while. Upon takeoff power reduced significantly and the aircraft was landed safely. Fuel was found in the carby vent line, a known problem for this engine type.'

 

(912)

 

 

[Ben Longden]

Sir Humphrey would be soooo proud of that one.....:confused:

 

Ben

 

 

[icebob]

Hi Everyone,

 

the main reason i reported on this forum the loss of my VP1 was just the reasons you have given, some things i agree with 100% some not so, but hay we are here to learn in a positive way and that was my main reason i did my post, i felt confident that all of you out there would support me and not look down the nose at me, that is why i reported here and not to RAA.

 

Bob.

 

 

[Guest Graham Lea]

Is it not a *requirement* of your Raa Certificate to fly a Raa aircraft that you report it the RAA?? I do not know the ramifications of failing to do so...

 

Graham Lea

 

 

[icebob]

Hi Graham,

 

yes i guess that is so if you have a RAA registered aircraft, if it's not as in my case then as far as i can see they(RAA) have nothing to do with it, it is handled by "Big Daddy" :big_grin:.

 

I just wanted to share here on this forum as i have meet so many genuine people here and i felt comfortable doing so.

 

I have noticed a certain crepitus in getting accident reports though.

 

Bob.

 

 

[Kev]

John (Crezzi)

 

You beat me to it, but I was also going to mention the BMAA method of reporting incidents/accidents. I always read them and think 'could that happen to me?' and if so, would the result have been the same? It helps to keep you focused on flying safely at all times.

 

It is a shame there is nothing similar over here (as yet?)

 

Safe flying

 

Kev.

 

 

[Guest dracer]

Good question and points well made Joe.The answer resides in the form of environment you have (culture if you like), how that is controlled and by whom!

 

In your example your student can do very little except try to cause a major upheaval and probably be crushed by the results.

 

It would be a very different story if the CFI involved (I appreciate that this is probably a hypothetical example we are discussing – but is far from uncommon) was constrained by Movement structure such that he knew he would not get away with it and his ratings were on the line as a result, so would perforce have reported it despite not wanting to.

 

But it goes beyond that. We have to engender a culture where we encourage good quality reporting and hence safety feedback to all, via control systems that the membership may be practically involved in and thus gain from. The human factor you refer to is important and has to be treated head on! We have to have a movement where it really is ‘one for all and all for one’ and the members believe that their contribution is valid to make that happen plus materially assist in retaining the credibility of their movement so that they may also retain the freedoms the movement has won!

 

Peer Group Pressure is increasingly being mentioned as a force in our movement at airfield level. That can only exist if there is an effective structure for it to exist in! Without that it comes down to force of personality (which an individual may not have) or actual threats of reprisal (which an individual may not want to do).

 

A couple of examples: Quite a few years ago, at a major ultralight fly-in at Watts, a visiting Drifter pilot commenced full spins from around 1000’ agl and recovering at around 400-500’ agl. He was doing this right over the only row of houses for bloody miles, the owners of which were conducting a campaign to have our fledgling airfield closed down! So I had several forms of motivation running and was waiting for him when he landed.

 

A student could not have done what I then did, but I certainly could and made it clear that I would enforce my view one way or another while pointing out how many actual Laws he had broken. Suffice to say he was gone as soon as he refuelled and has never been back. That is one form of ‘peer group pressure’.

 

Another was again a visiting Drifter pilot that put on a hopeless display of Airmanship in circuit work and I sort of left my own students and wandered over for a chat with him. I asked for his views on circuit work and we had a little discussion that was most amicable and solved the problem. We parted on friendly terms and we have never had a problem with him again when he has returned (quite often) – he simply did not realise.

 

What is often (conveniently) overlooked is that you cannot hush things up by not reporting them – either at airfield or National level! There are eyes everywhere and it is not simply a case of peer group pressure within our own movement – recreational airfields may have representatives of many other movements or interest groups. The word soon gets around and we are thus diminished even more, not simply because of lack of present control, nor lack of reporting – but apparent disinterest in any of it. However it does work the other way.

 

At another major Watts (GA) fly-in a strange Drifter appeared (OK I may not like Drifters much, appreciate that they are actually fine aircraft, but I am certainly not picking on them).

 

This was one of the early 95.10 Maxair Drifters, but still with two seats, unregistered and no markings. It was being flown by a very senior and qualified commercial GA flying instructor who coincidently was not a member of AUF nor ever had been. He worked at a very major Qld school where the CFI openly despises ultralights – but eagerly takes our member’s money for GA conversions. The piss-poor Airmanship display that went on repeatedly defied description. I finally broke when we had a near collision (20’ separation) at the threshold of 30L as he landed over another ultralight starting take-off and had managed to engineer this magnificent situation by flying a 300’ tight circuit that kept him totally out of sight of the other pilot!.

 

I did not bother with the pilot but went straight for his boss. The interchange was acrimonious to say the least! It terminated by a flat statement from myself – the pilot and aircraft were to be off Watts by the following morning or a formal, detailed complaint was going into CASA along with photographs. The pilot and aircraft left that afternoon! Another form of peer group pressure.

 

OK I reported none of the above. I had resolved them at source and reporting was a waste of time anyway. Been there and done that also! Here are some examples where reports were submitted by myself or others:

 

(a) Prop fell off a Skyfox and killed the pilot. Nothing much done about it.

 

(b) Same school as above – Owner ordered by supervising LAME to get a prop rebalanced. This was not done and the crankcase split in the air with a student on board. But the school continued

 

© Same school as above – at least four major prangs with Skyfox aircraft. Mainly operational causes. School not known to have been responsibly examined. Situation resolved at source by taking the owner behind a hangar and giving him a thorough flogging. School voluntarily closed down!

 

(d) CFI/PE/L2 commercial operator with several airworthiness problems already under his belt was convicted, in two separate court cases brought by CASA and jailed for criminal operational misuse of aircraft. AUF retained him as a member and merely removed his instructor ratings.

 

(e) CFI/PE/L2 commercial operator commissioned myself to fly in his trainer a distance of about 150 nm. Aircraft failed pre-flight on 9 points including a broken main boom that had been inadequately repaired because the cause had not been identified – nothing done despite a detailed report.

 

(f) Same as above. An allegedly rebuilt T300 produced 2.5 A4 pages of faults including elevator cables sawing into fuel lines, non compliance with mandatory ADs, illegal just as it stood, aileron system worn beyond tolerance, non compliant 95.25 components, that were obvious, falsified UACR – nothing done despite two detailed reports.

 

(g) Same as above. The individual was criminally convicted (at the hands of CASA) for operational misuse of an ultralight. This, on top of the Airworthiness issues reported, saw him still with his full ratings two years later!

 

That is sufficient for the time being. I have prior stated that I would start opening up unless something responsible was done about the control structure of this organisation and have now started doing so. I have extensive records, a good memory and always couch my comments in terms where they can be refuted in equal detail. So do not go up my ribs for ‘bagging RAA’ – we have to deal with what we have got and the record does speak for itself – if you begin to become acquainted with it!

 

I am going to cease here, but there is a lot more yet to come.

 

I will close by saying that accident, incident and airworthiness reporting is not in itself the issue. The real issue is an environment where the members see that it is worthwhile reporting and we have the manpower/funding/media and structure in which this can happen.

 

Aye

 

Tony

 

 

Your 'peer' pressure is fine Tony BUT one day ul wind up getting a broken nose.....

 

:D

 

bp