issues of concern across the industry where they may exist and what "we" the RAA community can do to

[old man emu]

I kind of hate the RAA for the situation it puts me in. If they where doing their job properly I wouldn't be in this situation.

My apologies again, but what is the situation you are in?

 

OME

 

 

[Wayne T Mathews]

We know that Gary Morgan's (24) registered aircraft are tempoarily grounded but do we know and are allowed to say what other manufactured (24) aircraft are also grounded.I am just trying to get some sort of scale as to how many aircraft and Flying Schools are affected.

Alan.

I think this is an excellent question Alan, and I'm going to try and put David's response below so everyone can see the answer without having to search for it.

 

Alan,

 

The aircraft affected were all LSA and LSA types are the only aircraft NOT exempt the requirement to have a 'Special Certificate of Airworthiness'.

 

The Lightwing Speed 2000 and the Morgan Sierra were found to be missing the 'Special Certificate of Airworthiness', some Jabirus had a certificate but it was not on the RA Aus records and these were produced and those aircraft were cleared to fly.

 

In reality it only affected the 24 registered Sierras and a handful of Speed 2000s.

 

Once a 'Special Certificate of Airworthiness' is produced both these aircraft will be cleared.

 

David

 

 

[winsor68]

The problem as I see it is with the aviation industry in Oz as a whole... I am certainly no expert but I have recently earned my pilot certificate with Ra-AUS and I have worked in the aviation industry for a few years now... CASA doesn't want the responsibility of caretaking any aviation activity in Australia... they are lazy and have just set up their version of speed cameras to add to revenue and left the operational regulation up to the participants... sadly in RPT as in GA and RA the self auditing has been made a total mockery of if its been done at all(as it seems in the case of Ra-AUS for the last couple of years... just my opinion based upon my experiences.

 

 

[farri]

The reason why I think that CASA can sort this out is previously, I walked away and kept my mouth shut and that almost ended in a pilot getting killed. My fear is that the RAA will eventually get sued after a third party gets killed and the unsafe practices which they are turning their backs on whilst void the public liability insurance they have. Leaving me with no licence and an unregistered plane, that sounds selfish eh? The Ferris wheel incident shows how random these accidents are and too some degree how easily they can happen.

FT, I must be a slow learner because now I`m even more confused!..You talk about " Unsafe Practices " but don`t explain what these practices are!

 

With statements like that, I`m wondering who it is that will be sued first.

 

Frank.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Farri, I got nothing, I am not the only one that saying nothing. I'm not sticking my neck out either as much as I hate the idea of putting people in harm's way to save myself.

 

I can't see how complaining to the RAA about the RAA is going to fix anything, from what I have seen of the RAA, they just aren't interested in anything that's going to cost them money. I work in the telecoms industry which is self regulated via the TIO and I can know from first hand experience that self regulation doesn't work. Things will get worse before they get better, the Ferris wheel incident should have spurred the RAA into action about plane safety programme to ensure that all RAA aircraft are safe but they aren't choosing that option. RAA system just seems designed to coverup failure.

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

FT, I think your jumping the gun. The Ferris wheel incident is being investigated by those outside of RAA and considering the relationship between the parties involved RAA is hardly likely to do anything radical or brash in advance of the final findings. It seems to me that there are a number of pieces of info on this and other websites that bring into question some of the initial positions being taken by the investigators which is just normal process and explains why initial is initial.... RAA temporarily grounding a number of Aircraft based on some paperwork deficiencies to me says its not that they are doing nothing just steering a careful course.

 

Lastly why apply a "them" and "us" approach to RAA. The people running RAA are from us, they are our representatives and any attempt to point at them saying "well they are different to us" is devisive and wrong. If it truely does become an us and them, then we'll do what we did last time and toss out the them, and install some of us. As to having a fiscal focus, fantastic, so they should. Affordable aviation is a difficult ask and I want them to do all they can to maintain it.

 

Andy

 

 

[facthunter]

Too much of a "scattergun" approach ft. There is a time to put up or shut up. Sorry I can't put it more nicely. You make broad assertions and generalisations. Who can work with this? Nobody. You are also denigrating a lot of well intentioned hard working people.

 

An organisation subject to a thorough audit is hardly able to run amok as you accuse.

 

Do you get all around the organisation or are you basing your observations on "local" issues?.

 

Also you are not the only one to have economic and career or recreational investment, interests tied up with RAAus. Most of us have.

 

Reverse the situation. Imagine you are inside the organisation working on issues, and someone outside, is doing what you are doing now. Would that be helpful?. I can't see that you are listening to anybody on this forum either. You have had a good run so far, but you are deaf to advice. I HATE giving advice and speaking like this, because I'm just as interested ( at least) as you, in seeing Aviation at our level keep going well . Look at the big picture. You're not the only one affected. Nev

 

 

[fly_tornado]

Most of the board are flight instructors, closer scrutiny of flight schools is going to directly affect them financially and legally.

 

Imagine the scandal if a serving board member had their flight school shut down due to safety concerns. * comment removed by Moderator

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Ok

 

Lets take that ascertion and test it:-

 

Which of the following board members have a financial interest in a flight school

 

Tas: Eugene, Yep, I think so

 

NT: Empty

 

SA: Ed Herring, Yes, Murray Bridge

 

NSW: Paul Middleton, Dont think so

 

NSW: Don Ramsay, Nope

 

NQLD:Steve Runciman, Dont think so

 

SQLD:John McKeowan, Not 100% sure but dont think so

 

SQLD:Myles Breitkreutz, Not 100% sure but dont think so

 

SQLD:Nick Sigley, Dont Know

 

VIC: Rod Birrell, Yep

 

VIC:Bill Cain, Not 100% sure but dont think so

 

WA: Gavin Thobaven, Not 100% sure but dont think so

 

Now perhaps I ve got it wrong and the info above is incorrect, but if Im right then "Most" is the wrong word

 

Andy

 

 

[P4D]

What is REPCON?

 

REPCON is a voluntary confidential reporting scheme. REPCON allows any person who has an aviation safety concern to report it to the ATSB confidentially. Protection of the reporter's identity and any individual referred to in the report is a primary element of the scheme.

 

https://www.atsb.gov.au/voluntary/repcon_aviation.aspx?

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

There is the ELECTED board that deals with the day to day issues and decision making of the RAAus. Then there are the paid positions that are advertised and people with the required skills and experience are employed to fill those roles and are supposed to deal with the administration of the RAAus. I cannot blame the elected board about the issues of standard for construction and operation. The problems like not having correct paper work ETC is not a fault of the elected board.

 

In GA there are accepted standards for repair, maintenance, and modification, clearly from what i had seen of those photos of the aircraft in question then the RAAus do not follow those standards. In GA there are penalties for not following accepted practices. Both in the work and facility. If the RAAus want to play pseudo GA then they must follow the accepted practices.

 

I think that it is the elected boards role to ensure that the Admin is up to speed.

 

my view

 

ozzie

 

 

[fly_tornado]

So has anyone every heard of the RAA punishing anyone for breaches of its rules? They certainly don't seem to publish any information about the day to day running of the association.

 

moderated

 

 

[David Isaac]

So has anyone every heard of the RAA punishing anyone for breaches of its rules? They certainly don't seem to publish any information about the day to day running of the association.

Well RA Aus grounded the Morgan Sierra, the Lightwing Speed 2000 and several Jabirus.

[fly_tornado]

So thats it? No actual punishment.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

CASA do have an anonymous method of reporting breaches and safety concerns. but you must be able to support your concerns. Maybe RAAus should have the same.

 

 

[David Isaac]

So thats it? No actual punishment.

Two pilots also had their pilot certificates suspended. Suspension of registrations and certificates may be the only punitive capacity that RA Aus has.

Still happy to talk if you are. We would need to both agree to move forward in any case.

 

 

[facthunter]

Confidential ( anonymous) reporting. It should be an option, maybe?. It has it's downside that it could be used maliciously to disadvantage a competitor etc. All accusations should have a verification process. An anonimous submission has shortcomings in this regard.

 

The rights of the person(s) accused are as important as those of any other. Reputations are at stake as well as financial considerations etc. This is not a problem unique to the RAAus.

 

Pilots and others whistleblowing often never work in the industry again. The powers that be, make sure of it. Nev

 

 

[Guernsey]

I think this is an excellent question Alan, and I'm going to try and put David's response below so everyone can see the answer without having to search for it.

Alan,

 

The aircraft affected were all LSA and LSA types are the only aircraft NOT exempt the requirement to have a 'Special Certificate of Airworthiness'.

 

The Lightwing Speed 2000 and the Morgan Sierra were found to be missing the 'Special Certificate of Airworthiness', some Jabirus had a certificate but it was not on the RA Aus records and these were produced and those aircraft were cleared to fly.

 

In reality it only affected the 24 registered Sierras and a handful of Speed 2000s.

 

Once a 'Special Certificate of Airworthiness' is produced both these aircraft will be cleared.

 

David

Thanks for that David, we have now been given approval to fly our 24 registered Morgan Sierra as it has been TEMPORARILY re-registered as a (19) aircraft.

 

The aircraft numbers have been changed.

 

Alan.

 

 

[fly_tornado]

So David does 2 pilots seem like a little or a lot given the size of the membership? Is that 2 pilots this year or since whenever?

 

 

[sain]

I'm quite supportive of giving people the ability to report things anonymously. As FT has just experienced, a person standing up and saying "hey, something is wrong" will typically lead to that person being ostracised.

 

The downside to it is that you get an increase in the number of complaints that will require investigation to determine if they are credible (i.e initial "is the complainant B.Sing?"), then investigation to determine if the complaint is accurate and actionable. That requires more cost and skilled staff, which I suspect RAA doesn't have. I may be doing them a disservice there.

 

I think amongst the aviation community that the Ferris Wheel incident has done us a lot of damage. I'm gobsmacked that the existing processes didn't catch the issues, but I think what RAA can do about it is fairly limited. After all, the existing processes should have picked up the issue surely?

 

Perhaps some of the more experienced people hear can enlighten me - would it be normal to take the inspect plates off the wings and empennage and to examine the internal structure for flaws? Would this normally happen during a 100 hourly?

 

I think amongst the non-flying community that know about the Ferris wheel incident the impression is that those ultralights are built tough. Certainly my mum is happier about me flying after having seen the pictures and learn't that the pilot and passenger walked away . I have been told to keep a good watch out for low flying carnival equipment however.

 

Another thing that has me curious is that neither CASA or RAA have issued an AD for aircraft built at that factory requiring a visual inspection of the riveted structures prior to the next flight. I suspect thats either because they consider all relevant aircraft grounded anyway, or that the problems from the prelimanary report are isolated to a single aircraft. or they are still making up their minds about what to do.

 

That has me thinking that the best thing to do is await the outcome of the CASA and RAA inspections and the RAA audit, see what action RAA takes then, and do something about it then if I don't like it. That'll be either suggest something to my state's board member, run for the board myself, or vote with my feet.... or sit round in puzzled confusion.

 

In the meantime, I intend to go and fly!

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

True anonymous reporting is difficult without supporting legislation that disallows tracing of the reporter's identity. That is why REPCON is an appropriate avenue.

 

 

[sain]

FT i'm aware of a number of pilots being asked to explain their actions to RAA in the past. I believe some have been required to undergo retraining prior to flying again, others have had their pilot's certificates revoked. I think there were even some comments in the RAA mag back in 2007 or so by the Ops Manager about him disliking doing it and would we all please behave.

 

RAA does take action, but due process and ensuring procedural fairness takes time.

 

Put yourself in the pilot's shoes - would you prefer to be delt with fairly and impartially, or would you prefer to be delt with by the mob?

 

 

[Tomo]

Are we talking about aircraft regulation, or pilot certificate/training regulation?

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

...I think amongst the aviation community that the Ferris Wheel incident has done us a lot of damage....

That might be a media viewpoint, but in reality it was the practices that have been discovered by the attention drawn to them due to the accident that is the real cause for concern and will now motivate process improvements.

It will, however, never be a perfect world while humans are involved.

 

 

[djpacro]

....Another thing that has me curious is that neither CASA or RAA have issued an AD ......

CASA's position on AD's for LSAs: "In general, CASA issues Airworthiness Directives (ADs) against type certificated aircraft and only in exceptional circumstances will CASA issue an AD against LSA. For critical safety of flight issues, the LSA Manufacturer will be responsible for issuing Safety Directions ..."