issues of concern across the industry where they may exist and what "we" the RAA community can do to

[Guest ozzie]

Read elswhere about NSW bi election coming up your name is not on the candiates list David.

 

 

[turboplanner]

Read elswhere about NSW bi election coming up your name is not on the candiates list David.

Nor is yours Ozzie, and you would make a great backbone for the rag and tube guys.

 

 

[Wayne T Mathews]

I happen to agree with you where the reporter desires confidentiality.There are other situations where sometimes we may find ourselves discussing particular questionable or unsafe practises; I am trying to draw discussion out as to the alternatives where say a bunch of us who may have discussed a particular issue of concern actually collectively approaching the person or organisation concerned and raising the issues directly with them. The person or organisation is first hand given the opportunity to either explain, tell us to bugger off or agree to ensure rectifying the matter. Personally I believe that should be potentially our first port of call.

In a perfect world, we could just walk up to someone we saw doing something wrong and say something to them... But most good people won't do that, because the bad people doing something wrong, know they're doing wrong, and will become aggresive when challenged. And it's a fact of life that most good people will walk a mile over broken glass to avoid an aggresive confrontation. Which the bad people know, and exploit... And so we go round and round...

 

So how can we correct this? One way of course is to submit to a police state situation and have official "minders" looking over our shoulders all the time, looking for any mistakes we make so they can justify their salaries... And so we go round and round...

 

I do not like the police state option!... But then I don't like the idea of bad people bullying the good people either, so we need to find an answer that works... And that my friends is what this thread is about... Tapping into the thoughts of good people to come up with answers... There has to be a way at grassroot level, that the good people can come together and negotiate better behaviour from the minority of bad people...

 

Ideas folks, that's what David is calling for,,, ideas that'll work while staying within our cultural ethic of "No dobbing"... Not easy is it?... But come on, we can do it. Put your thinking cap on and submit your idea.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Spot on Wayne, thanks,

 

So to perpetuate the thought process here is my other post again since it got buried two pages back.

 

Lets look at a hypothetical situation in say a flight training facility (FTF). What should we do if we observe dangerous practices at a FTF?

Lets say look at a couple of possible examples that could apply to any FTF.

 

1. Aircraft regular overloading, going on Navs overloaded or obviously overweight instructor and student for a given aircraft type.

 

2. Aerobatic manoeuvrings in training ( a controversial issue).

 

3. Incidents e.g. hard landings involving damage that go unreported to RA Aus

 

4. Unsafe practices such as inadequate pre-flight checking, unsafe refueling practices, inadequate or inappropriate repairs or minimum equipment serviceability.

 

5. Issues of disagreement on training adequacy, techniques or methodologies.

 

That ought to do it to start with as any of these could happen at a FTF.

 

So some or one of these is noticed by a few and a few talk among themselves about it ... but what should they do at that point? What do we collectively as the RAA community think we should do about such issues especially where letting it go unreported could conceivably lead to death or injury in the future?

These are hypothetical, the specific details are not important, it is how we handle this as ordinary members that is important to the future of the RAA community.

[Guest ozzie]

Nor is yours Ozzie, and you would make a great backbone for the rag and tube guys.

You're the politician David. I have no patience for it. I am more of the pre emptive strike type.

 

 

[David Isaac]

Communication with Steve Runciman President of RA Aus.

 

Folks,

 

This issue of fear of reprisals following complaints is a cultural issue in many countries. In almost all corporations now corporate guidelines have made it illegal for reprisals against those who raise issues of complaint.

 

With that in mind I have spoken with Steve Runciman this morning to gauge his view and he has made it very clear that he is willing to listen to anyone and follow up their concerns.

 

Steve stated that everyone can be assured that anything reported to him will be investigated and appropriate action taken. Steve said to me that his view is that if there is something wrong and it concerns safety then RA Aus will throw whatever resources they have at it to put it right. Steve further stated that we should all realise that if people are doing things that they shouldn't be then they are putting the rest of the organisation at risk and if they will not comply they should not be members.

 

Moderated - references to particular identity have been removed. Context of message remains unchanged.

 

 

[Chird65]

That is pretty easy if you are a participant. For an incidental observer, a lot of the required information is possibly not available.I would have thought that the first approach, if possible, should be to the CFI of the FTF to ask an innocent question, indicating your perception of the situation and seeking an explanation. That may reveal that you are mistaken or if not, will give some insight to the attitude of the CFI.

 

The next step, as has been published in the RAA magazine on several occasions, is to phone the Operations Manager and discuss your observations. The Operations Manager can then make his own inquiries. In the article, he indicated that he preferred to take that route, rather than receiving the first call from CASA.

 

I have also heard stories of several pilots losing their licenses after being reported for serious infringements, however I do not know any details except that some were RAA and some GA.

David,

I agree with you and this is what I would do in the examples you gave. My answer was probably aimed at the members who think that the system is broken. There are official ways of reporting the incidents that can go via RAA operations manager and if no action then CASA. if a person wants to keep their names then the ATSB.

 

We as an association of members have our peer process to get fellow aviators to keep safe. We also have the official method if the breach warrants it.

 

I like this threads intent as it gives us a way of discussing what can be done and if there is a systemic issue we "could" submit a well thought out solution to our organisation.

 

Chris

 

 

[ahlocks]

This thread has been moderated to restore it to its original topic and intent and to remove the cause(s) of its decline to the point it where it was locked and removed from view.

 

Any further submissions that are antagonistic toward forum members, frivolous or vexatious in nature will not be tolerated.

 

If you have had a post removed or moderated and do not feel that it was justified send a PM to "moderator" to discuss. No public discussion will be entered into.

 

 

[Wayne T Mathews]

This thread has been moderated to restore it to its original topic and intent and to remove the cause(s) of its decline to the point it where it was locked and removed from view.Any further submissions that are antagonistic toward forum members, frivolous or vexatious in nature will not be tolerated.

 

If you have had a post removed or moderated and do not feel that it was justified send a PM to "moderator" to discuss. No public discussion will be entered into.

Good morning Ahlocks; You obviously have been working long and hard. I believe you have done a great job by removing the obnoxious bits while retaining the thread's intent. You have also kept the thread's "flow" intact. A job well done. Thank you.

 

 

[kaz3g]

The system is NOT designed to keep unsafe practices hidden. There has always been a requirement to put in reports of unsafe practices and many persons are able to do this. . In a general sense ANY person observing an aircraft operating in an unsafe manner is required to report it to the regulatory body....Nev

Absolutely, Nev. Both a legal and moral responsibility is vested in pilots and engineers to report safety breaches by virtue of the TSI.

 

https://www.atsb.gov.au/mandatory/asair.aspx

 

Who is a responsible person?

 

ANSWER:

 

A responsible person is a person listed in the TSI Regulations who is required to report a transport safety matter. The TSI Regulations provide a list of persons who, by the nature of their qualifications, experience or professional association with a particular transport vehicle, or number of transport vehicles, would be likely to have knowledge of an immediately or routine reportable matter for their associated mode of transport, should one occur.

 

Under section 18 a responsible person who has knowledge of an immediately reportable matter is required to report it to a nominated official as soon as is reasonably practicable. The responsible person must also provide a written report of an immediately reportable matter or routine reportable matter within 72 hours of a transport safety matter occurring. A responsible person is excused from the reporting requirements if they believe on reasonable grounds that another responsible person has already reported the matter to a nominated official.

 

A member of the public is not precluded from making a report, however, they are not 'responsible persons' and are not subject to penalties under sections 18 and 19 of the Act for not making a report.

 

What is an immediately reportable matter?

 

ANSWER:

 

An immediately reportable matter is a serious transport safety matter that covers occurrences such as accidents involving death, serious injury, destruction of, or serious damage to vehicles or property or when an accident nearly occurred. Under section 18 of the TSI Act, immediately reportable matters must be reported to a nominated official by a responsible person as soon as is reasonably practical. The reason for such a requirement is the need for ATSB investigators to act as quickly as possible is often paramount in order to preserve valuable evidence and thus to determine the proximal and underlying factors that led to a serious occurrence.

 

The list of immediately reportable matters for each mode of transport is contained in the TSI Regulations. Immediately reportable matters are the only transport safety matters that need to be reported for the marine and rail modes of transport. In aviation where the Commonwealth, and hence the ATSB, has more comprehensive responsibilities for the investigation of transport safety matters there is also a list of routine reportable matters.

 

What is a routine reportable matter?

 

ANSWER:

 

A routine reportable matter is a transport safety matter that has not had a serious outcome and does not require an immediate report but transport safety was affected or could have been affected. Under section 19 of the TSI Act a responsible person who has knowledge of a routine reportable matter must report it within 72 hours with a written report to a nominated official.

 

The list of routine reportable matters are contained in the TSI Regulations. Routine reportable matters only exist for aviation and would include a non-serious injury or the aircraft suffering minor damage or structural failure that does not significantly affect the structural integrity, performance or flight characteristics of the aircraft and does not require major repair or replacement of the affected components.

 

Routine reportable matters exist only for aviation as the Commonwealth has wide ranging responsibilities for aviation matters because of the nature of the industry in which all aircraft are subject to the same control. In the marine and rail transport modes the ATSB concentrates on serious safety matters in relation to international and/or interstate transport only as the Commonwealth does not have sole responsibility for these modes.

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/manuals/regulate/enf/009r011.pdf

 

This is the link to CASA's enforcement manual that is relevant. It's quite a process and various people are involved in decisions as to prosecution or not. Makes it clear why the separation of the safety investigator and regulator roles is so important.

 

kaz

 

 

[facthunter]

It's a pity that all that can't be condensed down to about one fifth of the length of what it is.

 

You are an aviation aware person because of your hobby.

 

If you see something you are not happy about report it, and be as specific as possible. Don't make any judgements as to why, or say we will all be doomed if

 

this is allowed to happen etc

 

If you say the plane "ABC was flying" LOW "your ability to judge and sustantiate that would be called in to question

 

If you say "ultralightplane 19 xxxx" departed aerodrome "Hometown" with the owner-pilot on board,into a cloud base of stratus cloud IFR on date / time, observed by myself and two others who are ALL pilots you have much more likelihood of things happening. Nev

 

 

[Guest Howard Hughes]

If you say the plane "ABC was flying" LOW "your ability to judge and sustanatiate that would be called in to question

You need to reference a low flying event to a known geographical feature. eg:"I was standing on hill 'X' which is 538ft AMSL when aircraft 'XXX' flew past considerably beneath my vantage point".

 

 

[kaz3g]

Unsafe Practices in my view are those actions or omissions that put the aeroplane, the pilot, the passengers or third parties at risk of injury or damage.

 

So the guy who knowingly flies his aeroplane with damaged airframe or engine operating at less than 100% efficiency is by these actions engaging in an unsafe practice. The girl who routinely takes off without any sort of preflight is by her omissions engaging in unsafe practice. And the pilot who enters the circuit against the circuit direction is definitely doing something bloody unsafe (I nearly got cleaned up by one who did it without any radio call, either).

 

RepCon is one way to go https://www.atsb.gov.au/voluntary/repcon_aviation.aspx? but this doesn't apply to really serious acts or omissions which are a crime and does not absolve a responsible person from the mandatory obligations of the TSIR (going to be interesting to see how CASA's proposed new regs which make everything a crime impact on this).

 

The other is the the CASA confidential hotline 1800 074 737

 

If somebody is putting safety at risk I think you should report it especially if you have previously attempted to speak to the offender with the intention of changing his/her attitude and this has failed.

 

I think if you dial 1831 before the 1800 number you will block the recording of your phone number at CASA.

 

kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

Well RA Aus grounded the Morgan Sierra, the Lightwing Speed 2000 and several Jabirus.

It is very unlikely that details of any non-statutory reckoning by the Association would be reported because of privacy and reputation concerns. As I understand it, RAAus can affect a licence, permit or registration but cannot impose pecuniary penalties or prosecute offences... those are matters for CASA.

 

kaz

 

 

[kaz3g]

I keep telling you even though I am aware of what I consider serious breach of RAA rules and dangerous behaviour, I am not saying anything.....

Then it seems to me that you are failing in both your moral and legal duty, FT.

 

Sometimes it's not easy to do the right thing but there are ways of doing it without placing yourself personally at great risk. You owe it to us all to do it or you become part of the problem instead of the solution.

 

kaz

 

 

[Bandit12]

So, getting back to the crux of it - what do people think may be issues across RAA?

 

Using the Ferris wheel incident as an example, does anyone think that training regarding the use of ALAs is lacking, or perhaps that the responsibilities and processes to follow for ALAs aren't clearly defined? Identify a problem, come up with possible solutions!

 

 

[facthunter]

One particular incident would never be a statistical base for anything. Recently ALL pilots over a certain age had their requirements tightened regarding Flight review to carry passengers on the basis that a small number of OLDER pilots had attempted downwind landings. (Age Discrimination.?I think so).

 

We should all realise that landing downwind is not restricted to older pilots. Its a training and a WINDSOCK issue and an awareness issue. Perhaps now we will rescind that idiotic rule. It would fail on a discrimination basis anyhow.

 

Wait till the Audit results are out.

 

You have a reinvigorated Committee. We have the resources of you, me , and everybody else out here to add our collective opinion/ views to any review ..

 

Be thorough, not overreactive, realistic and practical. Change for the sake of it is not the answer.

 

Invite submissions (eventually, after the audit etc) from all affected parties, and have an expert group ( with input (advice/facts. from anywhere appropriate) to evaluate them and produce a proposal for changes and invite further comment at that stage, before finalisation. This has to be a quality document. Do it once , do it right. Nev

 

 

[Tomo]

So, getting back to the crux of it - what do people think may be issues across RAA?

The lack of, or closing down of airfields... not just an RAA thing, but that's really all I can think of at the moment.

 

The Audit issue... that's hardly an issue, the idea of an audit is to fix problems that are found, that may have been covered over by other more important things at the time etc... so to me it's just a process that needs to be worked through, and hopefully come out stronger and more efficient for next time.

 

Regulation of pilot certificates should be much like a drivers license, it's mostly up to the holder to ensure they are legal, but there will be the ones that get found out if they aren't. Just like those with driving licenses.

 

Factory built aircraft regulation - I believe each factory built aircraft should get a CofA done by a third party, not the factory itself.

 

You can't regulate everything, so inspections and Audits every now and then need to be done. Which from my understanding already does happen.

 

We have it really quite good in my opinion, so something that we as a member can help out with is making sure we are up to scratch with everything. So when an audit or inspection is done it's a no brainer.

 

Happy flying!

 

 

[turboplanner]

Factory built aircraft regulation - I believe each factory built aircraft should get a CofA done by a third party, not the factory itself.

That's what has evolved in many industries, and why you've had tax cuts due to the massive savings of paying salaries, sick pay, superannuation, uniforms, cars and test equipment to government inspectors who in some cases simply took a bribe and looked the other way.

 

Today we have self regulation and some auditing on a random (unexpected) basis.

 

Having been through both systems I think what we've got now is more effective, certainly in the transport industry.

 

 

[winsor68]

Has anyone been involved with any regular Ra-Aus auditing of any facilities? If yes... any in the last say 2 to 3 years?

 

 

[winsor68]

That's what has evolved in many industries, and why you've had tax cuts due to the massive savings of paying salaries, sick pay, superannuation, uniforms, cars and test equipment to government inspectors who in some cases simply took a bribe and looked the other way.Today we have self regulation and some auditing on a random (unexpected) basis.

 

Having been through both systems I think what we've got now is more effective, certainly in the transport industry.

Very true Nev... My concern is that from my lowly place "in the industry" I have a concern that the exact opposite is true... And it goes from the top to the bottom... so reporting to CASA is hardly likely to make a difference since they are a part of the problem...

As for how to fix it... well we all may have to toughen up and concede that proper and effective auditing, by the book (no need to change a thing just follow the existing rules) may cost us a few $$$ extra.

 

 

[Ignition]

The lack of, or closing down of airfields... not just an RAA thing, but that's really all I can think of at the moment.

Exactly right, Tomo... This should be one of the main priorities, if not, the main priority for RAAus (and other aviation groups) at the moment. We have recently seen Clare Valley open in SA, and Lockyer Valley in QLD approved to be built, which is great, but we need to see more of it.

 

The general public say 'no airfields, its dangerous and noisy with airfields near by.' the issue with that statement is, No, its actually safer; if there are less airports, there are less places for aircraft to land if they have an engine failure or other problem, and therefore would have to use a road, or a park... The noise is not even that bad, I live under the approach to Moruya and myself and my neighbours all agree, it doesn't bother us in the slightest, we barely hear a plane go over unless we are listening out specifically for it (which for me is most the time, because I love flying and planes in general, so if I hear a plane go over, I'll be outside to spot it with the camera). There are far worse things to have a whinge about than some noise for a couple minutes of the day, and most airports tend to finish operations for the day a little after sunset.

 

Airports open up the entire world to the town, they bring in commercial activity, they support the towns... I'm lucky I think, Moruya is probably one of the best regional airports for location (though it could do with an upgrade), and our council do know that many businesses & medical services would cease to exist in the area if the airport was not around, so they are looking forward to upgrading the airport and keeping it active, the only issue is cash, or the lack of it... I personally think it will take a fairly big donation to get the airport upgrade happening, so I can only see the airport being maintained as is for the next 10 years or so, before they can even consider starting the upgrade.

 

So, RAAus & everyone else, what we should focus on is more airports, especially near the cities.

 

 

[Ignition]

Now that we mention airports, does anyone know what the latest is with Warnervale & Belmont Airports?

 

 

[kaz3g]

The lack of, or closing down of airfields... not just an RAA thing, but that's really all I can think of at the moment....

I think this and the phasing out of avgas 100LL are the two most serious concerns for private aviators.

 

I can see the unfortunate (for us) future of several airfields in Victoria where private ownership has changed or is likely to, and subdivision is the new name of the game. Phillip Island, Ceres and Penfield all come to mind. It is to be hoped such speculative activities are discouraged by the responsible authorities.

 

Then there are councils who allow housing to encroach around the boundaries of their once distant airfields and then think they would be better off if it all became housing. Shepparton was/is an example of this but councl has also now started to think about the true cost of relocation and the importance of an airlink for, amongst others, the aero medical service. Reassuringly, some such as Yarrawonga have taken a different view and have been pro-active in developing the aviation resource.

 

The avgas issue is one that will be driven by cost as much as health and environment concerns. I'm now paying $2.10 per litre at home while, at the same time, I have been buying ULP for the car at as little as $1.23. The reality is it's not much of an economic proposition to supply avgas in the relatively small quantities that the market requires. Shell has pulled out many installations around the country for just such a reason. And there isn't much around at present that offers a real alternative if we who need it are to be able to continue to use our current engine installations. I'm hoping that an additive mix will become available so that we can use PULP with an STC much the same as some of the older cars can run on ULP with an added mix to help the valves survive and prevent detonation.

 

If we don't have somewhere to fly to, and if we can't afford to get there, anyway... then private flying for many will become just a memory.

 

kaz

 

 

[old man emu]

My personal feeling is if I say anything before anything really bad happens the people involved have been in the aviation community long enough will use there influence against me to discredit the allegations.

You have the ability, yea even the duty, to prevent death and/or injury to others, and all you are worrying about is how your precious status will be affected. How would you feel if you lost a loved one because of someone's wrong-doing that could have been prevented by early intervention?

 

Sure allegations of wrong doing will be fought. People who are do the wrong thing always fight against being found out and dealt with by the rest of Society. At the same time, there are crimes of omission. Failure to report wrong-doing makes the person who fails to report it an accessory to the wrong-doing.

 

If the matter is so grave that you think that it must be reported upon, then report it. If you do, and your concern is found to be true, the rest of us will sing your praises. If the matter is true and you don't report it, the rest of us will condemn you as an accessory.

 

It's your choice. Make it.

 

Old Man Emu