See where the other planes are...

[J170 Owner]

Okay, your GPS outputs its data into a device that is hooked up to a transmitter that transmits your callsign and GPS location at (say) 2 minute intervals using standard AX25 packet protocol. Receivers in other planes pickup the transmission and a device decodes the packet of data and displays on a map (on an ipad or similar device) the location of that particular plane. The idea is not original, us Ham radio operators have used packet position reporting for yonks. So, all you modern electronics wizards that are into FPGAs and stuff, stop interfering with the girls, put down your drinks and start working on it. I'll keep the coffee coming and provide the pizza. If the display software was designed well, it could be used like TCAS and warn the pilot of possible conflict, although I haven't included altitude in my idea (starts to get expensive).

 

 

[rong]

Unless you specifically want AX25, it's been done (http://www.flarm.com/). Gliders have been using it for years.

 

 

[J170 Owner]

Unless you specifically want AX25, it's been done (http://www.flarm.com/). Gliders have been using it for years.

Yes, but the range seems limited. It would be nice if a flying school could see where their students are at any given time or your family could see where you are while flapping about. It was just a thought, guess I save on coffee and pizza...

 

 

[Guest Evan Hart]

While I have been a pilot for many years I have also been in the IT industry almost as long. The idea of being able to see and track other aeroplanes (and cars, boats) is really easy to fulfil provided only that each aeroplane to be tracked has the same software on board and computer switched on. As it happens I am currently developing such an application now although it will not be seen in public until Windows 8 is released later this year. The application is intended to run on a Windows tablet computer but will also run on both netbooks and laptops. It will also run on desktop PCs so that family will be able to track flights. I should point out that the operator/pilot will always have the choice of being able to be followed and who can follow her/him. All software required to us this application will be free of charge.

 

A few other features may be built into the application - internet access via the mobile phone system and WiFi, VoIP telephone calls.

 

The most difficult part of this system is obtaining LED or LCD screens that can be seen in direct sunlight, however I have found a source for these screens in a number of standard sizes.

 

Should anyone be interested in this kind of application I would be very interested to hear from you regarding features you would like to see included.

 

 

[J170 Owner]

While I have been a pilot for many years I have also been in the IT industry almost as long. The idea of being able to see and track other aeroplanes (and cars, boats) is really easy to fulfil provided only that each aeroplane to be tracked has the same software on board and computer switched on. As it happens I am currently developing such an application now although it will not be seen in public until Windows 8 is released later this year. The application is intended to run on a Windows tablet computer but will also run on both netbooks and laptops. It will also run on desktop PCs so that family will be able to track flights. I should point out that the operator/pilot will always have the choice of being able to be followed and who can follow her/him. All software required to us this application will be free of charge.A few other features may be built into the application - internet access via the mobile phone system and WiFi, VoIP telephone calls.

 

The most difficult part of this system is obtaining LED or LCD screens that can be seen in direct sunlight, however I have found a source for these screens in a number of standard sizes.

 

Should anyone be interested in this kind of application I would be very interested to hear from you regarding features you would like to see included.

Sounds cool, look forward to seeing that. I to am into IT (programmer, C++. Mainly image processing, OCR and feature tracking stuff). Started flying thirty years ago.

 

 

[Exadios]

While I have been a pilot for many years I have also been in the IT industry almost as long. The idea of being able to see and track other aeroplanes (and cars, boats) is really easy to fulfil provided only that each aeroplane to be tracked has the same software on board and computer switched on. As it happens I am currently developing such an application now although it will not be seen in public until Windows 8 is released later this year. The application is intended to run on a Windows tablet computer but will also run on both netbooks and laptops. It will also run on desktop PCs so that family will be able to track flights. I should point out that the operator/pilot will always have the choice of being able to be followed and who can follow her/him. All software required to us this application will be free of charge.A few other features may be built into the application - internet access via the mobile phone system and WiFi, VoIP telephone calls.

 

The most difficult part of this system is obtaining LED or LCD screens that can be seen in direct sunlight, however I have found a source for these screens in a number of standard sizes.

 

Should anyone be interested in this kind of application I would be very interested to hear from you regarding features you would like to see included.

Apart from any comms capability how is application this functionally different from ADS-B / 1090ES?

 

 

[Guest davidh10]

Try "Real time GPS Tracker" if all you want is to see where another aircraft is located, its altitude, track, ground speed etc. It isn't a traffic avoidance tool though, if that is what you are after.

 

 

[Exadios]

Okay, your GPS outputs its data into a device that is hooked up to a transmitter that transmits your callsign and GPS location at (say) 2 minute intervals using standard AX25 packet protocol. Receivers in other planes pickup the transmission and a device decodes the packet of data and displays on a map (on an ipad or similar device) the location of that particular plane. The idea is not original, us Ham radio operators have used packet position reporting for yonks. So, all you modern electronics wizards that are into FPGAs and stuff, stop interfering with the girls, put down your drinks and start working on it. I'll keep the coffee coming and provide the pizza. If the display software was designed well, it could be used like TCAS and warn the pilot of possible conflict, although I haven't included altitude in my idea (starts to get expensive).

Just out of interest here is a simulation (replay) of a mid air that occured a couple of years ago in the US. The idea is to demonstrate what each of the pilots would have seen on their FLARMs had they been installed.

 

 

 

[chrisb]

I'd like to say the following

 

1. Shouldn't rely on the internet, it needs to work reliably especially if its for avoidance

 

2. Should be cheap, being an active device everyone will need a compatible device, no point trying to find aircraft that tx nothing

 

3. Should be simple, portable and generic, more uses (boating, 4x4ing) means lower price

 

4. Don't use propriety OS, keep it simple, robust and uncomplicated.

 

APRS might suite, tx telemetry data, then rx filter and display useful data, e.g. other planes, weather etc. Big problem is it needs an amateur licence

 

ADS-B seems similar but more complete and more expensive no doubt

 

 

[AVOCET]

While I have been a pilot for many years I have also been in the IT industry almost as long. The idea of being able to see and track other aeroplanes (and cars, boats) is really easy to fulfil provided only that each aeroplane to be tracked has the same software on board and computer switched on. As it happens I am currently developing such an application now although it will not be seen in public until Windows 8 is released later this year. The application is intended to run on a Windows tablet computer but will also run on both netbooks and laptops. It will also run on desktop PCs so that family will be able to track flights. I should point out that the operator/pilot will always have the choice of being able to be followed and who can follow her/him. All software required to us this application will be free of charge.A few other features may be built into the application - internet access via the mobile phone system and WiFi, VoIP telephone calls.

 

The most difficult part of this system is obtaining LED or LCD screens that can be seen in direct sunlight, however I have found a source for these screens in a number of standard sizes.

 

Should anyone be interested in this kind of application I would be very interested to hear from you regarding features you would like to see included.

How's the project going Evan ?

 

Is this thing spider tracks?

 

Cheers mike .

 

 

[Guest Evan Hart]

Rong, The ability for flying schools to track their aircraft would be built into the system from the beginning; seems to me that this is an important function, as you have clearly realised.

 

 

[Guest Evan Hart]

crisb, with regard to your points (my replies in italics):

 

• Shouldn't rely on the internet, it needs to work reliably especially if its for avoidance. Agreed and not intended. Internet connection would be for entertainment for passenger and to allow the pilot to access BoM for weather and to access aerodrome cameras and weather stations (another project of mine, which may never see the light of day). The internet would also allow VoIP communications as a backup to normal channels. None of these things are no-go items, just convenience things.
   
   
  
• Should be cheap, being an active device everyone will need a compatible device, no point trying to find aircraft that tx nothing. Absolutely. It may be that it will be possible to use "open hardware" from MakerPlane in Canada; the are developing VHF radios and Transponder that will be available at spectacularly low prices.
   
   
  
• Should be simple, portable and generic, more uses (boating, 4x4ing) means lower price. Absolutely, which is why I mentioned boats and cars in my original post.
   
   
  
• Don't use propriety OS, keep it simple, robust and uncomplicated. Yes, I am now looking at Android and Ubuntu, both open source and cheap and can run on cheap hardware although daylight visibility would be a problem.
   
   
  

 

 

 

My proposed system does have some similarities with ADS-B but would be much, much cheaper. According to my estimations the whole system could be sold commercially for about $600. Because of the nature of the hardware flight instrumentation, navigation and possibly engine data would be built into the system. In other words if you had one 10" screen you could have complete flight data (ASI, AH, Alt., DG, etc., etc., along with GPS navigation and other air traffic using at least a Transponder on the screen. However I do see this as a two screen system. I also suspect that engine data might be better shown on traditional round instruments.

 

 

[Guest Evan Hart]

davidh10, Real time tracker represents a small subset of what I am attempting to do.

 

 

[Guest Evan Hart]

exadios, you asked "Apart from any comms capability how is application this functionally different from ADS-B / 1090ES?"

 

The answer is, "very different". My application is intended to provide a full set of flight, navigation and possibly engine instrumentation is a very cheap and easy to install package. It would also allow access to BoM and AirServices websites in flight (weather data and flight planning etc.). I have another project under way to put secure camera on aerodromes along with weather stations, both of which will be accessible from my application, thereby providing real-time access to conditions at a destination. In addition to the above passengers would have access to entertainment via the internet and phone calls via the mobile phone system and VoIP would be available to all on board. Combined with MakerPlane "open source" avionics we could have an entire instrumentation and avionics suite available to special and experimental category pilots at a very low price.

 

 

[Guest Evan Hart]

Mike at Avocet,

 

The project is going, more slowly than I would like but that is due to some big changes in my life recently. Hopefully things will begin to speed up now. Spider Tracks is only a small subset of what my system would offer and my entire system would be very much cheaper to buy and to use than Spider Tracks. As I have noted in replies above, I anticipate being able to offer an entire instrumentation, navigation and avionics system at a price in the vicinity of $600 (hardware and software). In addition it would be all open source, so anyone would be able to put together their own systems to run my software.

 

Should there be enough users of my system they would find that an information service like ADS-B is actually built in and not an extra cost item. It would not actually be ADS-B but would present information in the same format on the screen and could use ADS-B data.

 

 

[Guest Evan Hart]

For what it may be worth I am investigating the use of my defined system and my software in a simulator, they idea being that when student pilots are grounded by bad weather they need not be entirely "grounded" but would be able to carry out some lessons and practice instead of wasting a booking or trip to the airfield.

 

The basic idea is to use and Australian designed and manufactured platform with 2 degrees of freedom with my hardware and software installed on it to allow for simulated flight using the same instrumentation environment as used in the aeroplane. As usual I am always interested to hear comments, both pro and con.

 

 

[Exadios]

exadios, you asked "Apart from any comms capability how is application this functionally different from ADS-B / 1090ES?"The answer is, "very different". My application is intended to provide a full set of flight, navigation and possibly engine instrumentation is a very cheap and easy to install package. It would also allow access to BoM and AirServices websites in flight (weather data and flight planning etc.). I have another project under way to put secure camera on aerodromes along with weather stations, both of which will be accessible from my application, thereby providing real-time access to conditions at a destination. In addition to the above passengers would have access to entertainment via the internet and phone calls via the mobile phone system and VoIP would be available to all on board. Combined with MakerPlane "open source" avionics we could have an entire instrumentation and avionics suite available to special and experimental category pilots at a very low price.

But flight, nav and Web are available in flight already.

 

 

[Guest Evan Hart]

Exadios, yes, they are but at what cost? For a system as completely specified as mine the cost is around $6,000. My system should cost in the vicinity of $600 and offer a range of additional functions as well. The biggest problem with my system is that it is not yet running. Some elements of it are but not the whole system. Keep in mind too that at the price I mentioned you will be able to have ADS-B and Transponder data from other aircraft on your screen too. Still, pie in the sky at the moment!

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Evan

 

How do you propose to transmit the data..what medium?... I use APRS in my aircraft and it works a treat http://aprs.fi/#!mt=roadmap&z=11&call=a%2FVK4KZK-9&timerange=3600&tail=3600 BUT it is for ham radio users only due to licence issues. If you are looking at a generic radio sytem to transfer the data this is a problem as you will need to deal with the ACMA to get a private radio channel for the operation. I doubt air services will allow these transmissions via airband radio so the only next option is mobile phone by the carriers this is fine but what happens when you are out of range ...the hardware and software has been working for years for this stuff the problem is the transmission medium

 

Mark

 

 

[Guest Evan Hart]

Mark,

 

I am using the mobile phone system plus mesh networks. The reach of mobile phones is considerably greater above ground level but hardly able to cover everywhere. However the great majority of light air traffic in Australia occurs in a very broad "lane" from roughly Melbourne up to the Sunshine Coast and the South West part of WA up to Perth and my experiments lead me to believe that data transmissions should be close to continuous in these areas. Outside these areas I am proposing to use Wi-Fi by way of wireless weather stations that I have been planning to locate in remote areas. These weather stations provide weather data, of course, but also provide Wi-Fi connections from ground-to-air and from ground-to-ground. They can also provide data connections via the mobile phone system.

 

You probably know about mesh networks but in case you don't they are essentially a ground-based network of Wi-Fi stations and if, for example, an airborne station can access a mesh station within about 60nm and that ground station can communicate with further ground stations then the airborne station can access every station in the mesh and through them the aircraft can communicate with the WWW. Mesh networks are very robust as they automatically re-route data if one of the stations goes down for some reason. The entire mesh can be centrally managed from a single station on the WWW.

 

I am hoping to put weather stations on strategically located aerodromes but the rate at which this network of stations might expand will depend on the interest in using them. All appropriately equipped aeroplanes (special and experimental categories only) would be able to access the network via a subscription the cost of which would depend on pilot's expected level of use of the system. Alternately aeroclubs and aerodrome operators could buy their own stations and put them on the network for which no charge would be required. Each station would devote some of its available bandwidth to the network and the remainder could be used by the owners to provide their own secure internet services (including VoIP).

 

I hope that I have provided a satisfactory answer for you but please feel free to contact me for further information at any time. By the way, I do not presently have any timetable for what I am proposing but ongoing experimentation has been highly satisfactory.

 

Evan.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

Evan

 

Thanks for the response and explanation the idea is great but the implementation will not work under current power levels allowed. My experience is radio though tells me you will never get 60nm from wifi even though the aircraft is in the best position for access. I run a microwave mesh network for my business and radio sites it is at 5.8ghz and works great over 4 separate radio sites and back to 2 base sites in Brisbane and also to the north and north west, the longest haul is 45km but the antennas are high gain panel arrays and their directivity is quite narrow I dont get any errors over the link and I run the bandwidth reasonably wide at 13 mb, To be able to operate into a wifi network remembering wifi is power limited to extremely low powers with a omni directional style antenna system you would be hard pressed to get 1 nm. I think your analogy of the mobile phone coverage would be a better more successful option

 

Mark

 

 

[chrisb]

Id also suggest APRS for data transmission or something similar, APRS has a few problems, apart from being amateur band, its slow and would clutter easily with many planes in the transmission range especially when repeating packets. WiMAX might be good, but I understand it cannot be setup in an adhoc network like wifi.

 

I wouldnt bother with replicating things that already exist, especially existing instrumentation. As Im sure it exisits on just about every production plane and second hand plane around. I also assume that stuff would need to be certified if you want the plane registered and that wouldnt be cheap

 

Get the absolute basics working first, internet access and all things related to that are fairly simply. Forget about all the features, focus first on getting the low transmission layers working first ie mesh type network similar to APRS working first as it will be the most difficult part, which is pretty much not possible due to restrictions. About the only thing you can do is put forward a case to get some bandwidth that can be legally used for this project, or convince everyone to get a HAM licence.

 

Once you have the stable way to reliably broadcast and retransmit packet data similar to APRS, then work on the next layer like the actual data packet content, format and the management of them. Then you can use, display, manipulate this data

 

 

[chrisb]

Pro: Evan has somee good ideas

 

Con: Evan needs more understanding of digital radio communications, this is a major flaw with your concept so far

 

 

[Guest Evan Hart]

Mark,

 

Many thanks for your feedback, it is very much appreciated. I tried my mesh idea some while ago and found that I was able to get very good reception in an aircraft flying at 1500' however I have no doubt that you are correct that the mobile phone network will prove much better and that is where I am concentrating my efforts at the moment. I cannot say of course that Wi-Fi reception was anything like 60nm of course, more like 11 km.

 

Evan.

 

 

[Guest Evan Hart]

chrisb,

 

You are, of course correct about my digital comms knowledge however I have tried much of what I an proposing, in an aeroplane, and so far has worked to expectations. No doubt I will run into difficulties however...

 

Evan.