See where the other planes are...

[chrisb]

Start with the basics first. Prove it works in all conditions first, e.g. tx and rx data at 9,500'

 

Go out of your way to find problems

 

I still say, dont use the mobile network

 

 

[damkia]

Has anyone thought about Ch22 on the basic UHF 477MHz band? This is a dedicated data channel usually used by farmers for intermittent telemetry (switching pumps on/off, measurements back to base of tanks, etc). At a pinch this would be a relatively inexpensive alternative to base a working framework on, even if it not the final one.

 

 

[chrisb]

no packet data allowed on CB ch 22, 23

 

 

[Guest Evan Hart]

Chrisb,

 

Good advice and I am way ahead of you. If this thing does not work it will never see the light of day (so to speak).

 

Evan.

 

 

[chrisb]

might be best to get it working using APRS on amateur frequencies first.

 

 

[Guest Evan Hart]

chrisb,

 

Interesting idea; I will investigate. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

Evan.

 

 

[Kyle Communications]

might be best to get it working using APRS on amateur frequencies first.

You must hold the correct ham radio license of course otherwise it is illegal to do it

UHF cb on ch22 and 23 must be in a selcall format no other data mode is allowed

 

 

[chrisb]

http://aprsdroid.org/

[Exadios]

Exadios, yes, they are but at what cost? For a system as completely specified as mine the cost is around $6,000. My system should cost in the vicinity of $600 and offer a range of additional functions as well. The biggest problem with my system is that it is not yet running. Some elements of it are but not the whole system. Keep in mind too that at the price I mentioned you will be able to have ADS-B and Transponder data from other aircraft on your screen too. Still, pie in the sky at the moment!

I'm not sure where you get the $6000 figure from.

 

I assume when you are talking about ADSB in because of the GPS receiver requirements for ADSB out. An ADS-B / 1090ES receiver costs about $35. For the rest the software and hardware already exist an are quite mature so I guess I must be missing something.

 

 

[Exadios]

Mark,I am using the mobile phone system plus mesh networks. The reach of mobile phones is considerably greater above ground level but hardly able to cover everywhere. However the great majority of light air traffic in Australia occurs in a very broad "lane" from roughly Melbourne up to the Sunshine Coast and the South West part of WA up to Perth and my experiments lead me to believe that data transmissions should be close to continuous in these areas. Outside these areas I am proposing to use Wi-Fi by way of wireless weather stations that I have been planning to locate in remote areas. These weather stations provide weather data, of course, but also provide Wi-Fi connections from ground-to-air and from ground-to-ground. They can also provide data connections via the mobile phone system.

 

You probably know about mesh networks but in case you don't they are essentially a ground-based network of Wi-Fi stations and if, for example, an airborne station can access a mesh station within about 60nm and that ground station can communicate with further ground stations then the airborne station can access every station in the mesh and through them the aircraft can communicate with the WWW. Mesh networks are very robust as they automatically re-route data if one of the stations goes down for some reason. The entire mesh can be centrally managed from a single station on the WWW.

 

I am hoping to put weather stations on strategically located aerodromes but the rate at which this network of stations might expand will depend on the interest in using them. All appropriately equipped aeroplanes (special and experimental categories only) would be able to access the network via a subscription the cost of which would depend on pilot's expected level of use of the system. Alternately aeroclubs and aerodrome operators could buy their own stations and put them on the network for which no charge would be required. Each station would devote some of its available bandwidth to the network and the remainder could be used by the owners to provide their own secure internet services (including VoIP).

 

I hope that I have provided a satisfactory answer for you but please feel free to contact me for further information at any time. By the way, I do not presently have any timetable for what I am proposing but ongoing experimentation has been highly satisfactory.

 

Evan.

Here in the SW of WA we use the 3G network to transmit our positions to a SkyLines Tracking. This is free and reliable. As you say 3G coverage is good.

 

 

[chrisb]

According to my estimations the whole system could be sold commercially for about $600.

Too high a price, there needs to be a basic version that does one thing and it should do it very well, "See where other planes are" The primary goal should be to have a device so cheap everyone can afford it as that is the only way you'll be able to "See where other planes are"

 

Every other feature is pretty much pointless if this fundamental does not work

 

 

[Guest Evan Hart]

Thanks chrisb, I got that from one of your earlier posts. And I certainly agree with your final point.

 

 

[chrisb]

APRS was started by one person and its now worldwide and has an amateur channel dedicated to it, from looking at the aprs.fi website it is used by boats, cars, planes, people, weather stations etc

 

Same with ozrunways, started with one person i believe and its now CASA approved. So its all possible.

 

I keep going on about low price cause this is aimed at the rec and private pilot/driver/captain, they dont all have heaps of cash to use

 

Firstly get your amateur radio licence, it will most likely be needed with the development and you can get help from knowledgeable radio experts, kickstarter project may be an idea. Get help to plan out the basics to make a solid working proof of concept, keeping it all simple, possibly use APRS or similar existing tech for the moment. Put forward a proposal to the regulatory in charge of radio frequencies and see what happens.

 

 

[Guest Evan Hart]

chrisb,

 

Many thanks, you are a most valuable source of information. I have been thinking about Kickstarter but need to have something that works before I can apply there.

 

Regards,

 

Evan.

 

 

[chrisb]

I don't have all the answers and might possibly be wrong with certain things

 

I don't know how kickstarter works, never used it, just like i've never flown a plane, might want to keep that in mind

 

 

[Guest Evan Hart]

I don't imagine that anyone has all the answers. I have two very good programmers however, with many years of experience. I have access to one incredibly knowledgeable electronics specialist although I doubt that he knows anything about APRS. My approach to this project is to bite off a little bit at a time and see how it works and only after it works as expected, add another bite. You have given me some more bites to think about.

 

You may be interested in the MakerPlane project - http://makerplane.org - they are creating an open source LSA along with open source avionics and the latter sounds like it may be of interest to you. MakerPlane is in Canada. Are you interested in flying? I guess you must be, as a member of this forum.

 

 

[chrisb]

Treat the project like how they'd write a complex program

 

And yes im interested in flying

 

 

[jetboy]

J170 and Evan,

 

I wanted to do something similar starting 5 years ago, before NZ microlights were required to carry a PLB.

 

Have run APRS tests, both VHF, HF and TETRA tests on a 900 MHz network to obtain real world experience.

 

For a system to be worthwhile it needs to have large uptake by the non-commercial aircraft, or at least be inexpensive for those who would use it - either for their own 'flight following' or for awareness of other aircraft nearby. FLARM is really only useful as a collision aviodance scheme, and only does that job if all the other aircraft have it. Because transponders are more prevalent, buying a PCAS would be the best way to do this function.

 

The reason the APRS works so well is the internet backbone, so once a position report has got into the system the track is searchable from any PC or connected smartphone, not just those aircraft in direct range. In NZ it should be possible to use the UHF CB data channels for this, however I doubt there would be high uptake with owners, similarly each pilot would need to obtain a ham licence in order to use an APRS radio in the ham bands, and this equipment would cost much more than a CB.

 

3 things are needed for an APRS system: the APRS encoder/GPS board which assembles the position reports, the transmitter, the network of ground receivers/internet connected PCs. The APRS system itself is patented, but its likely to be allowed to be used in this application non-commercially.

 

The APRS tracker boards are available at around $50. Ground receivers and PCs situated at club fields would not be expensive to set up.

 

If the VHF aero band was to be used (there are already channels used for ACARS) then the transmitter can be either an aero band handheld, or better still the installed VHF com. This could be best achieved with a simple software revision to the Aussie made radios so that when the APRS tracker board wants to send the packet burst, connected via the "copilot" ptt and audio input connections to the radio, the radio switches to the data frequency for the period of the burst, then returns to normal operations. This function obviously would be inhibited if the radio was already in use at that moment.

 

It remains for someone to convince the radio manufacturer to make the software revision.

 

In NZ there has been little interest in doing this, pilots have already bought their PLBs so the project has been shelved somewhat. It didnt help when the CAA prohibited submissions on any alternatives to the 406 systems when 'consulting' on the rules.

 

 

[Jabiru7252]

Recently found out about Life360 that runs on iPhones and Androids. Using it to track my sister and brother-in-law as they travel around Australia in their caravan. Works a treat so as soon as RAAus get my rego done I shall use that to see if family can track me as I flap about the skies.

 

 

[chrisb]

It'll all work fine if you stay within mobile phone range. It's when you leave mobile phone range that it becomes a big problem

 

 

[JUSTNUZZA]

I like the idea of using a submitted SARTIME, carrying a 406mhz GPS equipped EPIRB and using Skylines as a third resource for tracking and informing AIRSERVICES and AMSA than can use the tracking site to assist in positioning my aircraft if ever needed.

 

 

[chrisb]

Arnt SARTIME and EPIRB for saftey after you have had an accident, this is about preventing accidnets in the first place.

 

Also from what i understand skylines wont work with no mobile phone data access.

 

This thread has nothing to do with informing search and rescue after an accident cause suitable equipment of that kind already exists

 

 

[JUSTNUZZA]

Chrisb I was merely responding to Exodias post no:35 about the usefulness of Skylines and its free tracking when in a coverage area. I am aware that it is not directly related to this post.

 

 

[chrisb]

TBH my other half oking getting my raa licence and purchasing a plane is much higher then this. I don't think this kind of thing will happen, mainly because of govt regulations

 

 

[Exadios]

Chrisb I was merely responding to Exodias post no:35 about the usefulness of Skylines and its free tracking when in a coverage area. I am aware that it is not directly related to this post.

And I was responding to somebody else. :)

 

But it is beyond doubt that the most prevalent system of ground stations now existing is the current 3G network. And this is likely to be the case for the foreseeable future.

 

For gliding we use FLARM for anti collision although it has been used to locate downed aircraft because each FLARM node records the position of all other visible nodes. The 3G / Skylines system is used for vectoring tugs etc. However it could be used in the aircraft to improve situational awareness etc.