Guest ozzie Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 “Every action he made was an action that was deliberate and an action he had organised,” Mr Righetti said. And that will be what the magistrate hears. Onya sport! Just what we need at the moment.
Guest Andys@coffs Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 We are not involved in the due process, the guy is going to get due process and the police are not going to distract themselves with any of our theories or opinions. Thats a fact, however as we have been warned time and time again, the media feel no such compunction to ignore what others may speculate, and something said here may well find itself being quoted in the media worst case, or as a thread of thought that a journalist may take as a more likely outcome. As such as I have inferred before "say nothing that can ultimately do more damage to us as a group of aviators..."We are involved in a discussion among ourselves, where as usual a lot has been learned which will be put to good use by many, and will have served as a warning to a few who might have been thinking about doing the same thing. Thats all well and good if indeed it follows that a logical though process has been followed in this case and will be followed if we are unfortunate to ever see a repeat....... As Kaz inferred, there is likely more to it than what we have at present because there is nothing logical in what has been done at all and the most likely outcome is that those who wouldnt do this anyway will be even less likely to do this in the future.... So due process proceeds regardless of what we are talking about, and unfortunately you can whistle and jump all you like, but unless ATSB steps in the last you'll hear publicly of this crash will be the newspaper reports, so we have to make the most of analysing it ourselves. Given the public nature of this, and the fact that it causes all of us to have to pick our jaw up off the ground I wonder if ATSB will get involved. I dont know what the formal triggers are, as we speculated in the ferris wheel accident thread so I wonder if inadvertantly the same triggers, what ever they are, have been fulfilled here. In any event I wasnt saying dont discuss, just be cautious of what conclussions get drawn given that if it is as you say, we will likely always be short of the total story and therefore not in a position to judge what outcomes are likely or appropriate. Your experience is also well worth discussing in another thread because it involves a different lesson for someone landing on uncertain ground. I guess what Im saying is that on the facts that we have available to us someone did something that can have no logical explaination attached to it. That something, will at best only damage us in the eyes of the general public and at worst will damage us in the eyes of the regulator. Therefore trying to apply a logical analysis to a set of illogical actions seems to me, without more information, likely to achieve nothing.... but I'll watch with interest....
fly_tornado Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 It can't be too difficuilt to have the Register "live". Where's the fun in that?
fly_tornado Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 I supposed they asked him "do you think the plane was out of control or having engine difficulty?" “Every action he made was an action that was deliberate and an action he had organised,” Mr Righetti said.And that will be what the magistrate hears. Onya sport! Just what we need at the moment.
farri Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 I got sick and tired, a long time ago, of this, " Everyone brushed with the same brush", attitude. I am totaly responsible for what I do and say and I expect everyone else to take responsability for their own actions, ( Personal responsability ). It`s about time that everyone in society accept this and not continue to blame someone else or everyone, as a whole, for the actions of one or even more persons! Last time I looked,I thought I saw a whole lot of individuals! Frank. 4
Allan Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Later article in the Border Mail does have some quotes from the pilot. Bob Bogaard, 60, yesterday said he believed he was travelling at a reasonable height and said his altimeter was giving him a reading of 500 feet as he soared over the lake on Monday afternoon before crashing about 3.30pm near Ludlow’s Reserve.“I think I was flying safely,” Mr Bogaard said. “I went off my instruments and was flying accordingly. http://www.bordermail.com.au/news/local/news/general/i-was-flying-safely-crash-pilot/2410191.aspx?storypage=0 Hmmm. "Altimeter ...reading...500 ft" The lake when full is 192.0 mAHD, and is currently reading 189.19 metresAHD (which is a tad over 610 ft above AHD, which approximates the old 'sea level') 1
Ben Longden Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 The perfect excuse.... "But yer honour, me instruments said I was 500ft off the deck..." But, The rules do state a MINIMUM of 500ft off the deck, wet or dry.... notwithstanding the glide distance part of over water stuff....and other stuff from our more edjumicated and vocal members. Sadly, the evidence of eyewitnesses is backed up by a series of still photos that prove the aircraft was under control at the time, and engine working just fine.. One word comes to mind when the investigation is over for the pilot; screwed. BUT, if you have a read of the Border Mail eyewitness accounts, there are some seriously and rightfully unhappy campers there at the lake. What I dread is the possibility of political pressure being put on CASA to curb our RAA activities. This incident has the posibility of putting things back by 20 years.
SRPS Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Not sure if this link has been posted but it certainly has some photos worth looking at....once you get passed the ad. http://au.prime7.yahoo.com/v1/video/-/watch/27774904/family-tells-of-danger-flying/
Ballpoint 246niner Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Word's fail me but the investigation won't.....what is it with the holiday season and peoples brain's going on holidays?
alf jessup Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Ben, It only takes one to ruin it for everyone else. If you break the rules and crash be a man and take it on the chin (your honor, I F$%^*d up and was stupid, don't penalise my fellow aviators, I've learnt my lesson my plane is wrecked and i took the instrument panel on the chin but I am alive, take my licence give me a fine but leave my fellow aviators alone, don't judge them all by my own stupidity) None of us are perfect, I bet 95% or more on here have broken the rules at some stage and got away with it or actually learnt something from it that made it not wise to do again. Poor old Bob was one of them that thought it could never happen to him, it always happens to someone else, well guess what that day he was one of the someone else and he hopefully has learnt a valuable lesson. Lesson learnt? It's a Sapphire not a submarine (now that is debatable) Cheers Alf 3
Guest Andys@coffs Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Word's fail me but the investigation won't.....what is it with the holiday season and peoples brain's going on holidays? A bit close to home....My father developed a form of vascular dementia, at about this guys age, where he was entirely lucid and normal for some periods and did really weird things at other times. When we eventually got the diagnosis, which occured after a particularly bad period we felt we had to hand in his drivers license and get rid of the 2nd car. I can assure you he was not happy about that Jan! If, this guy, as an example was going through the same process he may not yet be diagnosed but have the same underlying problem. Im not at all saying that is the case, just an example of a possible reason that would account for the bizarre behaviour, but if it were true, other than wanting the removal of his pilot and drivers licenses ASAP, would you still feel exactly the same way? (general question not just of Ballpoint 246niner) I suspect that CASA and RAA would simply take them away and close it all down, nothing further need be done...Some might be concerned that some would call for Lev 1 or 2 medicals, but to be honest my father could have passed those for some time before being caught out depending on how he was on the day.... Food for thought Andy
farri Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 What I dread is the possibility of political pressure being put on CASA to curb our RAA activities.This incident has the posibility of putting things back by 20 years. Ben, I`m not sure just what you mean by, " Curb our RAA activities "!.... Curb what RAA activities? Frank.
fly_tornado Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 what about my theory of too much medication? That also explains the dodgy excuse for being so low.
Guest Andys@coffs Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 what about my theory of too much medication? That also explains the dodgy excuse for being so low. Yep, anything that can explain the illogical actions would have to be considered
turboplanner Posted January 4, 2012 Author Posted January 4, 2012 Why are we still looking for an excuse? The guy's actions in two locations were deliberate, the beat up and turn around the boat clearly shown in the phone photos. Sometimes you just have to face up to reality. 1
fly_tornado Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 When I was looking into buying a Tornado I searched through the NTSB database for accidents with Tornados, in the 1990s, when the Tornados where ultralights and unlicensed, there where a heap of ex-GA guys killed doing low level aerobatics on a cocktail of medication.
hendonguy Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 i can understand the pilot reporting an engine failure , he said his instruments read 500ft , hume dam is reported on the net to be 173m above sea level , thats 567feet , so he would have water in his fuel, flying at 500ft as hed be 67feet below the surface of the water , he may be haveing trouble breathing as well , but a hell of a way of checking out the fish population of the dam
Guest davidh10 Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Nobody has banned the use of motor vehicles because there are a few people who drive dangerously and kill others. The individuals are called to account for their actions. Why should the majority of law abiding flyers be penalised due to a few bad apples. There's some bad apples in every barrel!
Guest Andys@coffs Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 Why are we still looking for an excuse?The guy's actions in two locations were deliberate, the beat up and turn around the boat clearly shown in the phone photos. Sometimes you just have to face up to reality. There are a number of crimes that happen in society, apparently deliberately, that end up with a custodial outcome in a a mental institution not a prison. How can you judge "deliberate" unless you can question and understand the pilots reasoning and logic he applied? Anyway, its all a mute point until we hear more. The fact that Casa will lead the investigation, as you inferred previously, menas we might actually get to hear about the investigation and the outcomes.......but I wouldnt guarentee that, and certainly wouldnt put any time lines around when we might expect to possibly hear something...... Andy
turboplanner Posted January 4, 2012 Author Posted January 4, 2012 The fact that Casa will lead the investigation, as you inferred previously, menas we might actually get to hear about the investigation and the outcomes.......but I wouldnt guarentee that, and certainly wouldnt put any time lines around when we might expect to possibly hear something......Andy I didn't infer CASA would get involved (See my post #80), I suggested we would never hear the result of this incident.
turboplanner Posted January 4, 2012 Author Posted January 4, 2012 Nobody has banned the use of motor vehicles because there are a few people who drive dangerously and kill others. The individuals are called to account for their actions. Why should the majority of law abiding flyers be penalised due to a few bad apples. There's some bad apples in every barrel! Flying is also unlikely to be banned which seems to be a myth transferred from call for boxing to be banned, and it never has been. We are likely to feel the results of bad behaviour in two ways: 1. Where aviation decisions are made, for example a Council is deciding whether to keep its airfield, bad behaviour, even if unproven can influence people to vote against something. 2. Public Liability insurance. You can insure anything for a price. If the risk goes up, the price goes up. If the risk goes up exponentially, so does the price. The Lake Hume incident doesn't appear to have affected anyone but the person in the aircraft, so this point doesn't come into play here, but you can see that is there is a steady payout to victims, that has to be recouped. A good example of how an industry can be wiped out is the waterslide business which is almost extinct with the exception of companies who have found a way to minimise the risks, and increase the income to cover any accidents. The slides in every town though, have gone.
djpacro Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 .... bet he was wondering how the hell that boat was managing to be flying along side him,,,, I'm surprised that the series of pics is not in the Aviation Videos section where people seem to applaud flying like this.http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/awesome-video.32750/
Guest davidh10 Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 I'm surprised that the series of pics is not in the Aviation Videos section where people seem to applaud flying like this.http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/awesome-video.32750/ I guess it is analogous to "worlds stupidest videos" and other so called reality TV shows. There's a growing demand, commercially, for stupid behaviour of all kinds. Can't see the attraction, myself. I was hoping (a few years back) that TV shows like those would die out, but they seem to be multiplying :-(
David Isaac Posted January 4, 2012 Posted January 4, 2012 I'm surprised that the series of pics is not in the Aviation Videos section where people seem to applaud flying like this.http://www.recreationalflying.com/threads/awesome-video.32750/ Damn good point David. I was going to respond to the same point you made in that particular video thread. There seems to be some form of 'magnetic' attraction to these videos by most of us; if not to just shake our heads in disbelief. The fact these low level practices are dangerous (read high risk) in nature does not in itself mean they are illegal particularly where you have permission from the landowner and in the case of RAA are appropriately low level endorsed. For example flying my 95-10 Javelin over my own rural property at 50'agl checking fencing at 30 knots; the risk for me in these circumstances is minimal because if I had the misfortune of pranging, I would in all probability sustain less injury (other than to ego) from coming off the farm bike at the same speed. However, this particular case is entirely different; he is not over private land, he appears to be harassing the public and he doesn't have floats fitted so cannot use the excuse of an approach for water landing. (floats were designed and made for the Sapphire). Something appears to be array with this fellows mental assessment, he is 60 years old and this is not behaviour typical of any 60 year old I know. If it was the actions of a young fellow in his teens, 20s or 30s it would be more readily believable ... but NOT a 60 year old. No matter, it appears an irresponsible stunt ... could it be that he mistook the boat for someone he thought he knew, maybe as FT suggested it could be a medication issue, or to Andy's point a diminished mental capacity. Very hard to to just call stupid at his age. Even his statement that was quoted in the media and in post #86 above: “I think I was flying safely,” Mr Bogaard said. “I went off my instruments and was flying accordingly. appears bizzare; his judgement capacity at the point of making that statement should be subject to scrutiny.The investigation into the pilots total capacity at the time of this accident will be interesting and hopefully of value to all. As DavidH10 stated in his earlier post #100: ..... The individuals are called to account for their actions. Why should the majority of law abiding flyers be penalised due to a few bad apples. There's some bad apples in every barrel! I tend to agree, we don't ban cars and close streets because of hoons in cars, we arrest them, compound their cars and suspend their licenses. This should be no different. No one in the industry condones this behaviour. I doubt we will all be 'Judged' but our reputations will certainly be damaged and there may well be indirect consequences that Turbz has alluded to.
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